Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

They are new to the area and looking for friends.
That doesn't make sense. Of all the social groups in the area, why would a "man" choose a women-only one?
But basically it is a private closed social group so you can ask anyone you want, or bar anyone you want.
Absolutely this. It's a private club.

She turned up unannounced. I wasn't there. It's an invitation-only group that publicises its meetings on what was thought to be a secure SM account.
I wasn't going to post as it's not my place but this set off all kinds of alarm bells for me. That's all I'm going to say.

You are clear and correct that transmen are women. This person is demanding that everyone go along with her belief that transmen are men. You don't have to.
Imagine that instead of being a believer in gender ideology, they were a part of a religious cult which was deeply homophobic, and they agreed with the cult leaders that everyone in the group was going to be eaten by aliens at some unspecified future date. That would be a massive downer for everyone.
Whether or not this person is female is not the point at issue. All you have to decide is whether you want them in your private group.

For all I know, this may be an attempt at a gotcha, but it's missed the mark. Your group is not a job, or service.

I personally think that a lesbian group is for biological women who know they are biological women & are attracted to other biological women who also accept their reality.

If this was a woman who wanted to detransition, then I'd welcome them.
That would mean they did not use a male name or he/him etc..

If this was woman who denied the biological reality of being a lesbian or the fact that only biological women can be lesbians, then they have no place there.

What happens when they make friends with a man who wants to call himself a lesbian & bring them along, because they are 'all lesbians together'?

It's just wedging the door open to trouble if they are in denial about their own sex.

Has he said he sees himself as a lesbian? If is a group for lesbians and he sees himself as a heterosexual male, it is not the best group for him.

I think this is useful, thank you. I guess we need to hold a private meeting without her there to discuss what our issues are and what we're prepared to compromise on and where to draw the line. Then we need to invite her to come along for a special meeting, tell he how we feel and ask her how she thinks she's going to fit in and where she can compromise.

I'm using female pronouns as she has asserted that she is female in order to join the group. It's enough to make your head explode.

Given that so many of the women in this group are GC, or at the very least gender atheists, some of the sense of insult comes from the expectation that we'll just pretend that gender identity isn't involved in this situation. Perhaps that's a good way of reframing the situation. We don't go Gender Identity.

could a few of you who are open to working this through offer to meet her? And also have a general meeting of whole group without her to explore what the group feels pre and post a more discreet conversation with the main group? Sadly, and slightly less contentiously it is similar to any other informal group needing to find out whether a new member fits. You can’t just assume you can come whatever or whoever you are. One thing you could agree on is sex-based pronouns and see how that fits?

@pattihews
Sorry to keep banging on! I realise I've somewhat over-posted...
(insert "embarrassed" emoji. I can't find it.)

No, your posts have been very useful. They've allowed me to see how we can try and handle it as a group and also the importance of separating out the same-sex attraction side of things and the gender ideology aspect of things.

Also thank you to whoever said upthread that the issue of having a female body and arguing that you're female in order to join a women's group, while also choosing to modify your body because you don't like being female makes this whole thing political.

I'm using female pronouns as she has asserted that she is female in order to join the group.
So they is male when it suits they but also female when it suits they?
They managed to find out about the group but didn't have the courtesy to have a pre-meeting chat with anyone.
Sounds like trouble with a capital T.

In what way would they's membership improve the group? What's in it for you?

How complicated should life be?
It might put the group at risk, especially as it seems it's not secure as previously thought.

@pattihews
Glad to help.

Also thank you to whoever said upthread that the issue of having a female body and arguing that you're female in order to join a women's group, while also choosing to modify your body because you don't like being female makes this whole thing political.

I think that was me, too!

Forgot to add that we're well aware that as a private group we can invite and uninvite whoever we like.

I think the dismay is that having previously been through painful splits when transwomen entered lesbian-only/ women-only spaces and those of us who are GC were forced to leave and lose friendships with those who took the Be Kind route, and then Covid, we were just getting back to where we'd once been — relaxed lesbian-female-only groups feeling confident again about who we are. And now this, which I fear may well end up with another split. It's very sad. This has been thrust onto the lesbian community and has done such damage.

Tbh - this raises all sorts of alarm bells in terms of your group being outed and publicly "shamed" by someone fronting for those determined to remove all women's single sex spaces. I'd be very cautious about having any kind of meeting asking them to explain their motivation - so easy to set you all up with secret recording.
Sorry to sound sceptical or even paranoid - I know how important lesbian groups were to me when younger and how awful it is that these have had to go underground now - but the fact that they've accessed such a private group suggests you're likely being set up.

I have no understanding of any of this at all but 'bless her little beard' really made me chuckle. 🤣

I echo the pp who queried how your private SM group was accessed. Especially is your want to have a discussion about how to proceed.

As someone else in the group puts it, surely if she's for a woman for relationship purposes then she'd do better among straight women — because lesbians tend to be on the lookout for women who are happy to be women

But straight women are on the lookout for men, not trans men.

I would want to ask her some questions first and make it clear that this is a group for women who like other women. Does that sound like the right group for you?

I think I'd be a bit worried about this individual, especially as she has somehow managed to access a private invitation only group. As PP said, you could be being set up.

Yes, she's violated a boundary already!

I don't think from all I've heard that this transman is trouble. One of my friends has described them as seeming vulnerable on the night they attended the group.

One of our kind-hearted and not particularly thoughtful group members works at a local institution where it's thought the TM is a relatively new recruit. Sadly it's not difficult to imagine her inviting 'him' to the group on the basis that he's a woman, really. Before anyone shouts at me for misgendering, remember this person is claiming their female sex in order to join the group.

It sounds like she has a lot of work to do on her own gender identity and on that basis, I would discourage her from joining groups specific to gender and try something a little broader like sports or craft groups if she wants to get to know people in the area.

One of our kind-hearted and not particularly thoughtful group members works at a local institution where it's thought the TM is a relatively new recruit. Sadly it's not difficult to imagine her inviting 'him' to the group
Read the #BeKind the Riot Act.
I think, sadly, you may need some 'rules' for this group.

I am usually of the view that my commitment to single-sex spaces means I would welcome transmen into them. However, on this occasion I don’t think you have to at all. First off, it’s a private group and you can do as you like. But if this person believes they are a transman, it doesn’t just mean that they have rejected womanhood which is an issue for me, but were they to have a relationship with someone in the group they would categorise it as heterosexual. And lesbians should not be forced into any relationship which is either heterosexual or deemed to be. So I think logically and morally you are fine to exclude both transmen and transwomen. One because they think they are men so don’t qualify and the other because they are men.

However, I would probably welcome a detransitioned woman.

But wouldn't the TM have said "'kind-hearted person' invited me" and wouldn't 'kind-hearted person' have told the group? But as you have said, OP, there is some investigation that needs doing.

Seems a bit odd to turn up uninvited to a private group meeting and then be invited to stay. How were the dynamics of that meeting?

I think a chat with the group and with the TM are needed, but I would make it clear to the TM that it is not a done deal that she will be joining the group whatever compromises she is prepared to make.