Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

This misses a fairly major point. One that if you talk to some of the transitioned females, they are very aware of. Testosterone is more successful at changing a female body to have male cues to the point that some traumatised women may be confused.

many transitioned female people have said they fully understand this and are sensitive to the needs of other female people.

Your post doesn’t allow for this.

@postingthengoodbye you clearly missed that the group is also for lesbians. The TM didn't identify as lesbian.

If it was a female group, for females of any sexuality, you'd have a point. It wasn't, so you don't.

@titchy is this person not a biological woman who is exclusively attracted to biological women?

Well no. He’s a transman and would probably be very offended if you referred to him as a woman. So as a man, why would he want to join a group of lesbians? Unless of course you are inferring transmen are not men?

@Happylittlechicken I'm just going by the terminology used on this forum. Surely it doesn't matter how this person identifies?

Ahh okay so if you take hormones and 'look like' the opposite sex, you can be accepted as such in those corresponding spaces? It doesn't matter what your biological sex is?

Do you understand that some woman are traumatised by male people and those females who have modified their bodies with testosterone ?

It is well discussed that transition of males rarely removes cues from their bodies that signal that they are male. Whereas testosterone adds male cues to female bodies.

What part of this are you failing to grasp?

One reason that women which to have a group for themselves is to provide a safe space for those women who need it. It is but one of the reasons. But it does mean that those transitioned females who are conscious of this will not attend that group.

This really is not the ‘gotcha’ you obviously think it is. Once you start to centre women that is.

As Damon said

Girls who want boys
Who like boys to be girls
Who do boys like they're girls
Who do girls like they're boys
Always should be someone you really love

I think my heads going to explode 🎉

@Helleofabore I'd beg to differ because now you're having to justify why it's about how a person is perceived, rather than their biological sex.

Is this 'well discussed' and proven by any real scientific bodies, or just people on here looking to reinforce their own beliefs?

If there's research backing exactly what you're saying- send it my way!

Well wouldn’t that research be considered transphobic? To test the ‘passing’ rate of males and females? I highly doubt that would be approved.

And I don’t have to justify women wanting to have a group for themselves. And this issue is not as simple as ‘they are the same biological sex’. Trying to reduce it to that shows you are not centring women at all.

If you want verification, maybe go ask a group of transitioned females separately and keeping their views private and see what you find out. Don’t ask when they are all together, you might not get an honest answer.

I can only repeat what has been repeatedly posted on FWR by transitioned female posters and what I have read on twitter.

Again, if you chose not to accept it, that is your own issue. I am not posting for your benefit as you seem mostly keen to celebrate some kind of gotcha that you believe you have uniquely discovered.

It's a private group for like-minded lesbians. You have to be a lesbian to be considered, but nobody is entitled to join just because she is a lesbian. The OP and her mates can decide not to invite anyone for any reason. Their group is not a public service or "space". They just want women who are going to get on with the women already in the group so they can all carry on having fun and laughs and sharing. That is the consistent theme, as OP said. Being "a good fit" for the group.

I was just going to add a comment about lesbians having a right to form a group with other lesbians (ie biological females who are attracted to biological females) to support, share experiences, and yes even have fun.

They dont have to be a support group.

They dont have to accommodate someone who isn't a biological female attracted to biological females.

Women whether lesbian or heterosexual should not constantly be told they need to put other people's feelings, before their own.

But then I saw BellaAmorosa had sort of said that.

Just for once can we accept that women do have their own rights to be who they want to be and organise how they want.

The relationship between men and transmen, women and transwomen is not symmetrical. This isn’t like having two kids arguing for equal pocket money. Women don’t sexually abuse men to anywhere the same extent as vice versa, however they identify. Few men have been traumatised by women to the extent they physically fear them. If you try to argue all things should be perfectly equal, you’re totally missing the entire point that they’re not. Why do you think we have feminism board at all?

That was to postingthengoodbye.

Why should the lesbians invite a non-lesbian into their group? I am not a lesbian. I might be best pals with a lesbian I meet for a walk on Saturday, again at church on Sunday, at book club on Monday, at community clean-up on Tuesday, at coffee morning on Wednesday, at art class on Thursday, but completely unwelcome at her lesbian support group on Friday.

Why is it necessary for a successful group for women to drop everything and support someone who does not want to be a woman or define as a woman? Why do they need to upend their entire group to revolve around the needs and wishes of one trans person?

When there are multiple other local groups that the trans person can access without doing any harm to the group, where there would be no issues of any kind?

Why does the trans person feel this is necessary, to make this fuss and cause this disruption to women when they don't need to? Why would anyone rational feel the main job of a group of lesbians is to stop enjoying themselves and service a trans person?

Lets be honest: its to blow apart any group of female people not revolving around gender ideology.

Fuck off with that.

If you want to draw a hard line it goes both ways. If you think TM are misguided, vulnerable women (something said so many times on this forum) then surely they need support.

I’m about to blow your mind, so make sure you’re sitting down for this next sentence.

What trans people need or want is irrelevant. The women in this group are perfectly entitled to run a group for lesbians who know they’re women, because they’ll have a better time that way, because they don’t want to be language policed, because they want to avoid entryism by TRAs, or simply because that’s what they want and need.

Seems like that’s what they’ve done. More power to them.

Unless of course you are inferring transmen are not men?

Of course they are not. They are females who wish to join the other side. There's some real implications to that.

Jesus it is a private group. Just invite who you want to come. That is so subjective that it's unarguable.

Women are often just too accommodating- there are no actual rules here so enjoy the company and don't stress.

Lets be honest: its to blow apart any group of female people not revolving around gender ideology.

Fuck off with that.

This.

You know what? I'm a Lesbian who enjoys the company of other Lesbian women. I like women, I admire them; I find their smooth skin, hair, softness utterly sexually appealing.

Men physically disgust me and that includes women who take male hormones to look like some kind of creepy male homunculus.Its gross and an utter turn-off.

So NO! This person can find a group that caters to self-hating women with beards.

@postingthengoodbye I think you missed the bit of my post where I said that although biologically a transman is a woman, politically they are not, and sometimes that matters.

This isn't about changing rooms etc, where sex is the only relevant factor, this is a private women's lesbian group (feels ridiculous having to specify both those things, but here we are).

The trans man may well be in need of support. But why is it up to a lesbian group to provide it? Where are the men's groups offering support (And where is the scolding when they don't)?

WOMEN ARE NOT SUPPORT HUMANS

FOJN · 26/11/2022 14:52
I can't keep up.

A male who embraces the adornments of feminity and "identifies as a woman" and is attracted to women can be a lesbian and a female who embrace the adornments of masculinity and "identifies as a man" and is attracted to can also be a lesbian.

I can understand the indignation

As another poster said, they maybe have used being a transman as a shield from something difficult in their life, but now as a result feel more confident to spend time with other lesbians.

It is unfair though because they may be trying to look as though they are a heterosexual man to the outside world.

As the OP explained, there are multiple other groups of mixed sex attendees with various choices of identity where this person could go for all the support they want.

The issue is the wanting it from a group that are biological women, enjoying being and loving biological women. This is someone who does not want to be a biological woman and has identified out of it.

The demand that this lesbian group stop socialising and having fun together and get on with supporting this T person is the usual 'unless females are serving T purposes they are being naughty and should be made to stop it'. It has no value or regard for this group or these women or the needs of those women being met within the group, it just sees them as having a responsibility to stop enjoying themselves and be useful to more important people. It's like the shock horror on other threads that women are joking and chatting on threads about T issues and talking to T posters without soft voices, head tilts and extreme respect. It's about seeing females as the servant class for T people. The extreme end of that thinking is the T ideological belief that lesbians ought to learn to cope with straight sex for the sake of male people who want - well. Basically it appears, free sex workers. 'Learn to cope'. This sees females as not even having a right to enjoy sex or participate in it for any kind of reciprocation, they're just demanded to lie back and think of Stonewall for the sake of someone who matters and they don't.

What the hell does someone have to be smoking to be this sociopathic? And it starts with not valuing women. Or their leisure time. Or their enjoyment of a social group.

And let's face it we all know what this is about.

Almost inevitably, as many lesbians from lesbian groups know: the introduction of a female T people is usually a gateway to force the entry of a male T person.

And that's the goal. Theres a group of evil women having fun and not revolving around male people and being loudly clear that they believe male people are lesbians. Or being there to provide sex. The goal most likely is to smash the group.

The group say no. They have no responsibility to stop having fun and Serve. #Notyourmum.