Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

It look as if no one invited the transman to the group. They are in the LGB and TQ staff network at their place of work and one of the men in that network is friends with a member of the bar staff at the pub. So it may be that our meeting place is more widely known than we'd thought. It's one of the problems of living in a relatively small town. We'll have to think about what to do.

Thank you. I’ve only come across it in my daughter’s age group, where I’d guess it’s more prevalent, but it’s interesting to hear from a different perspective..

I think you’ve arrived at the right stance. Id include her under the conditions that she was supportive of the group members and goals. Telling hereNo one here wants to be in a relationship with a man or someone who doesn’t want to be a woman, so you need to acknowledge and accept your femaleness. We won’t call you he- if you want to be called he then this is the wrong group. It’s a womens group.
you might need to add that anyone who tells a transwoman about this group is instantly barred.
if someone applied for a job as accountant and you thought they were culturally an amazing fit for your organisation, then they started and said I don’t do accounting… you’d have to let them go immediately. If you had a bunch of 10 year old girls who met to play Lego, and another girl was really sad she wasn’t invited so they invited her, then she came and cracked the sads they wouldn’t play barbie with her, you’d not invite her again.

I’d suspect a Trojan horse personally.

I'm older and I don't know any older lesbians who've dated a transman but then I pretty much parted company with 'inclusive' lesbian groups and individuals some years ago and now spend most of my time with GC women. In my old social circles there were a number of women who experimented with testosterone and have identified as NB, queer, transmen, back to lesbian and who knows what else. I used to know Della/ DeLa Grace, for example.

She’s a female. She might be attracted to women. She has however rejected womanhood and decided that she is somehow more special than all the other GNC women, and ALL lesbians are GNC.

I’d find out how she discovered your group, tighten up your rules and security and then never give her another thought. She’s not entitled to your time, your mental energy or membership of your private group.

On reflection, it sounds like it would probably be better to give this person a miss. Not so much because she is trans, but because it could be disruptive for your group.

I'm coming to the point where I think lesbians are allowed to draw their own lines wherever they see fit, which mind in this case end up in yet another group splitting. Everything about gender ideology is destructive and divisive.

I agree with you, share your wariness and have seen this play out as infiltrating a group and gradually changing it to include MTF trans/non binary people.

I think it's reasonable to ask her to explain herself and make clear that male pronouns are not welcome in an all-female group. Then they can decide for themselves.

Yes this is what I would do.

If you do end up saying yes to her, and i agree with all the points above about why you need to be cautious, I would sit her down for a chat before the first meeting she attends properly. And i would explain very clearly that this is a group for women who are attracted to other women. While some may be happy dating a trans man for others she has excluded herself from consideration and that she MUST respect this. You would hope that everyone would accept a no and not push it but we all know that doesn't happen and sadly I think it should pointed out to her. After all, she is already pushing boundaries by being there (she may have thought it was an open group initially but when questioned she seems to have pushed things).

Sorry for the bad English- phone is playing up. Editing is weird. Hope it made sense.

Very upsetting to read that she may have found out about the group via one of the bar staff. What an abuse of their postion. I would want to make a complaint. And as you said, raises all sorts of issues for the group about feeling safe to meet up.

But what an indictment of the LGB+++ network. First that they obviously aren't providing her with the support she needs / wants, but the arrogance of not even checking with your group whether it is okay to refer someone to it, let alone not thinking about who that might be eg, women, trans women, trans men, bi women?

Shocking.

Not saying it was a deliberate ploy to try and expose the ouutlook of your group, but iteffectively does that, and as usual women themselves aren't consulted, someone else has decided what role women should have. ie Be aquiesent and obedient in picking up the pieces from the trouble they have caused.

I hope the group takes the time to sort out for itself what it wants. And if there is a difference of opinion hopefully the group wont split but continue to meet as before, and those who want to engage with a transman could do so separately.

Fingers crossed for an outcome that doesn't mean anyone feels pushed out.

I think that this, as Working said above, is important:

But if this person believes they are a transman, it doesn’t just mean that they have rejected womanhood which is an issue for me, but were they to have a relationship with someone in the group they would categorise it as heterosexual. And lesbians should not be forced into any relationship which is either heterosexual or deemed to be.

You don't need to use all those roundabout words.

The word to describe the women in this group is LESBIAN.
People already know that solely same sex attracted biological women are lesbians.
It is not possible for ANYONE else to be one.

They don't need extra words to try & make it sound like it has anything to do with anybody else or any other group.

Women don't have to budge over, not even for some other woman who has rejected her own sex, but expects women to put aside their own beliefs & accommodate transideology by still letting a person who believes they are a man into their 'dating pool'.

Why should lesbians be redefined to suit others?

Why should any woman (& of course, by that I only mean those who are biological women) be redefined to suit others?

Why would someone suggest a lesbian group to someone who (in their parlance) is a man? Again, I'd be really curious and tbh cautious.

We know that there are some people who just can't stand women meeting together without including men.

Just realised I cocked up my reply.
That should read as - Transwomen should use male groups/facilities, the otherside of the coin is that transmen should use female facilities/groups.
I don't believe a transman is male anymore than I believe a transwoman is female.

Group zoom planned for later this afternoon, but there's a general feeling on the WA discussion that we'll change the dates and places where we meet for the next few months in order to disrupt the routine. There is an inclusive lesbian/ women's/ trans / NB/ pink-haired group that meets in town every month and if this individual turns up at our meeting again we'll just say that we're not the group for her but give her details of that one, where she'll meet others who believe what she believes.

It's about belief. We meet because we all believe in the immutable nature of sex and same-sex attraction. She doesn't believe in that. Even if she turns out to be lovely, she's going to demand energy and attention by her presence and having had to repel a couple of very persistent TWs we just want to be left alone to celebrate being women together.

Oh why was my post deleted? Weird. I will try and phrase it differently.

In my experience, there are lots of people who used to identify as lesbian who are now transitioning. Maybe they have realised that queer spaces are not all they're cracked up to be and miss having a single sex space.

I think it is positive to have single sex spaces that are inclusive of trans people on the basis of their sex.

It's about belief. We meet because we all believe in the immutable nature of sex and same-sex attraction. She doesn't believe in that. Even if she turns out to be lovely, she's going to demand energy and attention by her presence and having had to repel a couple of very persistent TWs we just want to be left alone to celebrate being women together.

I agree, and I wouldn't want to have to do the pronoun dance in a women's group.

That makes total sense and is your right, of course. Radfems really aren't here to do the emotional lifting for detransitioners or desisters, or anyone even slightly questioning the genderist dogma. I have observed that people who have been ardent followers of that belief system who then move away from it aren't looking to stand on their own two feet, but are looking for a similar sort of group think to follow that is the next "correct" way of being. When what they really need is therapy. And your group isn't a therapy session.

Of course you would, Sappho. 🙄(hoping this is the eye-roll emoji)

You would think it’s positive @SapphosRock. But wouldn’t allowing a transman into a group for female homosexuals be totally invalidating? As a lesbian is a woman who is attracted to women, surely allowing her into the group would show that no one thinks transmen are men, apparently not even this transman.

I'm afraid based on experience over the past few years I would also be suspicious.

The sensitive, kind and thoughtful things to consider are all mentioned above; women are bloody good at them. (The female type, that is.) That this is a biological woman, who if attracted to other biological women is a lesbian, that this person may need support or be considering detransitioning, that this may be someone who would benefit from the group.

The bitter experience of TQ+ type approaches and actions are equally there because if anyone who hasn't learned to think twice and not be naive and gullible by this point is not paying attention: it is regarded by many activists as weakness and an invitation to take full advance without conscience.

I would have to wonder who this person may be representing as a doorway, and that once they have established that 'some lesbians are men' it will be very difficult to say no to the TW who arrives to say 'some males are lesbians' and also wishes to be part of the group.

I would be reminded of the many, many L groups destroyed from within by TQ+ members who insisted that either everyone obeyed and conformed or the group must be eliminated, and that essentially involved forcing out the concept and language of homosexuality or permitting females an all female space. Which is why so many L groups now operate underground. The politics works on a 'search and destroy' mode for female only facilities evading male control.

There are many LGBT+ groups where homosexuality means anyone of any sex can use any word they want and no one's allowed to mention biology or have preferences, all of the publicly listed ones are. This person has plenty to choose from. Female people who recognise their sex and biology and homosexuality do not.

It's hard to not 'be kind' and considerate, but the lessons taught by this ideology have been bitter ones. I would be glad to signpost this TM to local groups where they can identify how they like without this being an issue, and say that your group is not for them. And that is ok.

I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. Everyone involved is engaged with reality and knows the trans man is a female homosexual.