Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

Well yes, I suppose they can use this as a gotcha, I E ‘men can be lesbians, look at me, these lesbians let me in their club’.

Surely no one in the lesbian group will fancy her if she looks like a man?

From what has been said even if it isn't suspicious, what she is asking is illogical. If her identity is male then they cant say they are a lesbian. And without getting into detail if you identify as male, and have undergone surgery then no actual lesbian is going to accept you. Being lesbian is about being same sex attracted, ie to the female body. Not sure how much intimate detail the group goes into, and maybe some dont think that!

Nor can they use a lesbian support group to try and make friends. That derails the group and again asks women to give up their right to have support to become someone else's support.

I appreciate that she may be in need of support, but isn't there not a trans group in the area she could join.

It maybe that she is regretting transitioning, but again to support her in that changes the purpose of the group.

And if it is because she is having difficulty to find women to get involved with, then that is something she going to have to work through. That some heterosexual women will not want to be in a relationship with her, and neither will some lesbians.

I echo the suggestions up thread about some of the members of your group taking time to meet her and talk with her, and to ask her quite genuinely why is she says she identifies as male she can say she is a lesbian. And can she understand how confused you all are about how she can ask this.

(And of course, where and how she found out about the group.)

This does make me wonder whether there are any trans men support groups. So much noise and demands are about trans women not trans men.

This also brings up some sad memories of a women's group I was part of that came about for a particular project, and it just happened that everyone was lesbian. It was fairly thankless and time consuming work. And then just towards the end one of the women suddently announced they were about to transition, and said she realised she could not longer be part of the group and we were unlikely to see her again. We were all stunned, as had not had any notion that this was something she was considering, and probably didn't respond well. And we all just sort of stood there saying, how said it was that this was goodbye. This was 25/30 years ago.

NOBODY has to accept that a man into their group, whether they are a transperson or just a regular man.

It has absolutely NO bearing on this particular biological woman who seems to want to have her cake & eat it.

It is not the lesbian communities job to be her dating pool because women who are attracted to men don't count her as a man, while she rejects what the reality of being a lesbian & wants them to pretend she is a male.

It's abusive for either women who deny they are women or men who pretend they are women to expect normal lesbians to play a part in their drama.

I would let her join.

She's a woman who is same sex attracted, however she presents herself.

It’s not up for a debate. She is a biological woman.

Not welcome, because they remain a man and lesbians are same sex attracted not same gender.

Could the group just be redefined as a group for same sex attracted cis (as much as I hate to have to use that word) gendered women? Then that eliminates all issues of what way a trans person has moved from and to and they are now ineligible not (or no longer) being a cos woman?

Though on the other hand, and a genuine question, how much does an effeminate trans man differ really from a butch lesbian? As op did state earlier some of the butch group members pass better than the trans man does.

And people wonder whether homophobia still exists.

Is this a joke? A really really bad, homophobic one? Ffs.

Which part are you misperceiving as homophobic? As non was written with any homophobic basis in mind.
Not was any 'joke' included

It’s alive and well on MN.

You are very knowledgeable for someone whose posting history apparently started only yesterday.

She turned up unannounced. I wasn't there. It's an invitation-only group that publicises its meetings on what was thought to be a secure SM account. ... Investigations have begun to find out how she got hold of the group's details. It's a closed group and supposed to be secure.

This person's gender identity is less important than all of this, I'd say.

How did they find out about it? Why are they turning up at a group uninvited? Did they know it's supposed to be invite-only?

Urging caution here - it seems very odd and I'd be suspicious of the motives of anyone turning up uninvited at a non-publicised group.

homophobia very alive and well In stonewall and the whole gender ideology movement. Wasn’t it the head of stonewall, an organisation which allegedly supports lesbians, who stated that lesbians who refused to date males were ‘sexual racists’?

I’m sadden to read rejection of the woman that identified as male. I don’t know whether she is still on medication or into the ideology, but many detransitioners will be like her. Facial hair and voice changed are irreversible. I follow Scott Newgent and she has no breast, going bold, a damaged arm and lots of health problems because of the irreversible nature of these drugs and surgeries. She happens to have a male name, so do at least four of my closest friends.

So, i will not consider her a man as I don’t believe in gender, but it might depend on her attitude more than her presentation for me to say no to a group.

Apologies if you just wanted answers from lesbians, OP! I hadn't RTFT or your post properly.

Although, in this specific instance I don't think it's the person's sexuality or gender that matters so much as their intent and actions.

I'd say she is a biological woman who is attracted to women, so should be included. The argument is that transwomen should use male groups/facilities, the other side of the coin is that transwomen use women's facilities (if they wish).
But I'm not a lesbian, so obviously I'm not invested in the same way.

And?

You can't waltz into a group uninvited and demand that members call you something you aren't (he/him).

But really as pps have said, the bigger concern is how she found out about the secret group. Has it been infiltrated, is it still secure, is there a risk of doxxing?

I would be worried about what her agenda is. Why does she want to gain entry to a group specifically for a type of person she says she is not? Will she try to shut you down if you don't let her in? If you do, will she want to "educate" you? What impact will that have on individual members, and the group dynamic? How will she react when members correctly sex her?

The whole thing smells weird to me.

Interesting one.

It wouldn't bother me to have a bio female in a lesbian group.

He must be questioning the transition if he wants to join.

Maybe he feels like he is too far into the transition to go back to having a female name and pronouns, but doesn't know you well enough yet to explain it all.

A lot might depend on her age as well. I think it’s relatively common and accepted among young lesbians that some of them will date girls who identify as transboys/men.

So this approach may be innocent, but equally may not.

Glad to hear your group are looking into how she found out about your meeting. I hope it can be sorted out without any further trauma. I’m not a lesbian, but my daughter is. There are many young lesbians who seem to decide that it’s easier to transition so they can claim they are straight than face life as a lesbian, which is horribly sad. There are few enough lesbians to start with.

As well as working out how she found out about the group, and why she thought it was ok to turn up without introduction, I think my big concern would be that she's looking to 'detransition' and seeking a support group, you could all very well find your whole focus turned to supporting her.

It's a private group so you don't have to welcome her, it's up to you all, but definitely don't say yes out of pity or some misguided notion that you can all help her accept herself again, because it will almost certainly destroy the group.

This is such an important point so thank you for making it.

Such a pity that hse has likely been encouraged down an irrevocable path and possible is beginning to realise the mistake. The Lesbian group is likely their only support now.

I don't think it's a generational thing - plenty of middle aged lesbians also date transmen. (I am a lesbian.)