Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

Thinking out loud...

For me, either you allow her to join, or you welcome trans women.

I think it would be beneficial for her to mix with other lesbians and see how she can be herself without needing to trans.

I don't think she can compel pronouns, and may find it uncomfortable if she doesn't like that. Her name is irrelevant really. It's just a handle.

If it's not a dating group, then it doesn't matter if she's too male to fancy.

Argh! I too missed the 'other lesbian groups' line. I was wondering about my young friend, and hoping one day she'll end up joining a lesbian group as opposed to the rainbow letters group that have been helping her transition

Lady loving lady here who has attended lesbian groups in the past.

I feel it would depend on their intentions. If they are questioning whether they are indeed transgender, maybe thinking they are in fact a lesbian, I would welcome them as a means to allow them to explore that identity. It would be on the proviso of using female pronouns whilst attending the group. If they are committed and progressing fully with their transition then I don't think it's an appropriate place. (I'm am supportive of people who feel the need to transition, but transitioning means you're not a lesbian, you're a heterosexual man).

I think I would welcome the opportunity to try and gently rescue them from the gender ideology that led them to trans.

Wanting to join the group could be a first step.

Can't answer how other lesbian groups have dealt with this situation, but it strikes me that it would be entirely reasonable for your group to ask this male-presenting female how she sees herself within the group and how she sees herself fitting in.

Because you're right, it is a privilege to be part of an exclusive group; and not unreasonable to be asked in what way you qualify to be admitted.

It may be that they are acting in good faith. You're entitled to ask if that is the case.

I dunno, if you exclude her on the basis that TMAM then you have to accept the idea that TWAW. They are biologically female and are therefore a lesbian if they are looking for relationships with women, just like trans women are not lesbians. If I was a lesbian, I think I’d prefer to have a relationship with a woman with a beard than a “woman” with a penis!

I dunno, if you exclude her on the basis that TMAM then you have to accept the idea that TWAW.
No. The distinction is whether you believe that bio-sex is paramount or gender-ID is.

I posted the ‘can’t have it both ways’ message.

I totally understand the logical argument for a same sex attracted female being allowed to attend but I don’t understand WHY this particular one would want to. The thread feels like a bit of a GC ‘gotcha’.

Is there any truth that it is becoming wide spread for butch lesbians to micro dose on Testosterone to grow facial hair? Or was the poster who told us that just over exaggerating the prevalence?

Same issue as young gay guy with internalised homophobia who is perhaps non conforming so society, culture, Tumblr says non conforming means he is actually a she/her/them. Hey presto elective double mastectomy, hormones, irreversible damage, infertility, mental health issues all being promoted and normalised by Stonewall, Mermaids and Pink news.

All very sad, this person maybe predatory or considering detrans but they would be able to say that during screening for a female only space. .

I'd be saying as Lesbians are female and this person self identifies a male they will need to state their biological sex to be allowed entry to a female only space.

I am a lesbian & would have no problem welcoming this person (though I wouldn't see them as a man, so who knows whether they'd want to be around me!). They are female and presumably exclusively same-sex attracted, therefore a lesbian, so keeping them out seems rather petty to me. Clearly they have some level of open-mindedness because they're not sticking to the precise dogma that transmen can't be lesbians. Integration between gender-affirmative and gender-critical groups can be valuable if it's done in a respectful way.

if you exclude her on the basis that TMAM then you have to accept the idea that TWAW.

This.

I would allow her to join because I'm not prepared to give an inch to the idea that she is a man or that TWAW.

But I certainly would not be tiptoeing around them or avoiding confrontation.

I think it's reasonable to ask her to explain herself and make clear that male pronouns are not welcome in an all-female group. Then they can decide for themselves.

I'm not a lesbian, but I would assume that a transman who wanted to join a lesbian group is taking a step towards coming to terms with reality. These women are victims of trans ideology, and all female lesbian groups potentially could provide support as they heal.
I wouldn't have time for any nonsense about pretending that she's a man though.

First think to say is that I don't think you are obliged to admit her just because she is female. This isn't a council service, a sports club or anything like that. It's a very personal thing - women getting together as lesbians, female energy etc. She doesn't have a right to join, nobody does.

You should explain to her what that the issues are - her rejection of womanhood and how others in the group feel about it, etc and invite her to compromise - eg not insisting on male pronouns. That would be very weird in an all-female group.

Then, depending on what they say and how willing they are to compromise, put it to the vote.

thing, not think, obv!
Point is, everybody's feelings matter, not just hers.

So she's a woman, who is attracted to women, who just so happens to use a male name and have facial hair?

In my book, that's a lesbian and they should be welcomed.

Oh, bollocks - just imagine I've used "they" instead of her in the previous two posts!

She turned up unannounced. I wasn't there. It's an invitation-only group that publicises its meetings on what was thought to be a secure SM account. They tend to meet every couple of weeks in a pub that has a quiet back bar or a friendly cafe.

One of my friends who was there said that when this new person walked in they initially mistook her for a man and asked her to leave. Then this person said they were female and wanted to participate. They are new to the area and looking for friends. No one was prepared for it and no one wanted to make a big thing of it and ruin the evening, so s/he stayed. Investigations have begun to find out how she got hold of the group's details. It's a closed group and supposed to be secure.

One of the older women has been really adamant that she doesn't see why any of them should be expected to help this new individual work through whatever it is that's led her down this path. They're a social group to support lesbians, they've fought off the transbians, now they're expected to deal with this.

You said in your opening post that this person is a woman. So you put up with it. If you want to subscribe to the idea that they are a man then you can challenge it. Up to you but make your decision carefully.

Yes, she is a lesbian. But she doesn't just "happen to use a male name and have facial hair", does she? It's not an unfortunate physical condition that she suffers from. It's a conscious choice to socially and medically transition because you are ashamed of/disgusted by/uncomfortable with your own female body for any number of reasons. You can't ignore the politics.

I've done it again! Sorry, mods and trans allies.

This thread feels goady to me, like a chance to pounce on the terfs with screenshots on twitter.

But I'll add my thoughts anyway, in case I'm wrong.

If a trans identifying woman, beard or no, is exclusively attracted to women, then I wouldn't see a problem per se with that person attending a lesbian only group. (I'm lesbian btw)

I wouldn't be interested in a romantic relationship with said person, however, because we clearly disagree on some quite fundamental issues. But other lesbians may feel differently, which is fine.

It would be reasonable to exclude this lesbian - being female makes them eligible to join, it doesn't entitle them to join.

I wonder if the lady who doesn't want to deal with it would feel differently if this person did not insist on being treated as male? If so, it might be worth putting that to the individual that while they recognizer her as female not everyone is willing to observe gender ideology niceties like pronouns, and see what the response is.

But basically it is a private closed social group so you can ask anyone you want, or bar anyone you want.

But <opens eyes wide> transmen are men aren't they?

I'm confused by your male friend wanting to join a lesbian group ...