Transman wants to join lesbian group...

[pattihews]

A couple of months ago in my local supermarket I encountered a petite person with a neat little beard around their jawline. I saw them out of the corner of my eye, didn't stop to look properly, but knew immediately from the stature and hips and gait and the proportions of the face that I was looking at a woman.

Now this individual has turned up at a lesbian-only, female-only event and wants to attend regularly. Some members of the group are welcoming, others feel indignant that this woman has rejected womanhood and wants to be called by a male name, yet also wants the privilege (as we view it) of being part of an exclusive group of same-sex attracted females.

How have other lesbian groups dealt with this situation?

Straight women wouldn't be interested.

This individual is a female. You can't control what people say about you, I don't know why some people think it is reasonable to control what others use about you. Use sex based pronouns if you please.
The reality is, being trans does reduce the pool of people who would be interested. The only women who would be interested are lesbian or bisexual women, however understandably quite a few wouldn't be interested.
I get that it's a bit weird she'd want to come, but as a female I don't feel should be excluded.

I would explain it is a female only group, as a female she is welcome but others choose to use sex based pronouns so to expect that. As for the name I'm guessing it must be something that isn't unisex like Sam. I'd nickname. Fred is Effie, Tom is Tee, John Jay etc. Just be the letter of their chosen name or a spin off it if it would sound odd like 'Eff' would.

Just been back through the thread and I missed this earlier. It's a really good point, thank you.

I like the idea of offering her a choice. We could say that we accept her as a female who is attracted to other females, but we don't accept her male identity and it would be unreasonable for her to expect us, a group of mainly GC lesbians, to do so. So she has a choice. She can join us if she accepts female pronouns and identity — we won't be coerced into supporting her belief in a male identity.

That was my initial thought but I actually think it’s more nuanced than that. How do they see themselves? If they truly believe they are male and searching out females for a ‘hetro’ relationship in a lesbian group then I don’t think that’s right.

Yes, I would tend to feel this if she wanted to join a women-only group I was in. She is a woman, regardless of what she has done to herself. As a child I would have escaped womanhood if I could, because it looked so oppressed. (Thank god this was before genderism.) I would not accept a transwoman, because a women’s group is for adult human females.

But I’m not a lesbian, and might feel more conflicted about this if I was. Yes, she’s a woman. But she has rejected womanhood, or tried to. I think it would depend on her attitude. If she really sees herself as a man, she should not be in a lesbian group.

Do you accept trans women? If not then I think it is fine letting her in. If you do I think you should be consistent and say no.

In your position before i did anything at all I would ascertain how he/she came into possession of the meet up details. If they’ve been given willingly by a member (so she believes she’s welcome) that would be very different from if she’s deliberately tried to “infiltrate “ for a political/trouble stirring motive.

Assuming she was invited or had reason to believe she was welcome then I think that the next step would be for one or two people to meet with her and have a chat about how she sees herself fitting into a lesbian women group.

my guy feeling from reading your post is that she is probably questioning/ thinking about de transitioning. I feel like she’d be unlikely to come to a lesbian group and describe herself as female if she truly identifies as a man.

My final thought would be to not let this become too big of a deal with lots of meetings and discussions. Ultimately I think the group will feel better if the focus remains on women’s issues and this person isn’t a big focus

You can't exclude TW if you exclude TM. Biological women belong in women's groups, however gender non-conforming they are.
This is a woman who is attracted to women. They belong in a lesbian's group much more than a person with a penis & testicles who has a bit of lippy and a head tilt.

She wasn't invited to stay. She was asked to leave but said that she was female and a lesbian and wanted to stay. I don't know whether anyone asked outright how the TM had found out about the group. My impression is that people were gobsmacked and didn't know what to do so did nothing. There weren't many women there because several of us had pre-booked tickets to see a show in the local theatre. So probably only six or seven women there.

I can still remember the shock when the first trans woman turned up at an all-female event years ago, insisting on his right 'as a woman' to be there. We're far better informed than we were in those days, but this stuff can still throw you right off balance when it happens.

Even if they 💯 believe they are a man and therefore not a lesbian?

Im not saying I disagree but I think there’s nuance to this.

In your position before i did anything at all I would ascertain how he/she came into possession of the meet up details. If they’ve been given willingly by a member (so she believes she’s welcome) that would be very different from if she’s deliberately tried to “infiltrate “ for a political/trouble stirring motive.

I agree that I think this makes a huge difference. If the women in your group can invite anyone else along, then there’s a risk this person is putting on a vulnerable act and, once her feet are under the table, as it were, you might suddenly find that all sorts of less welcome male transitioners are being invited along. Given your group has been split before over this, I would be very wary unless you can ascertain that she was indeed invited and didn’t invite herself.

It seems an unusual situation and I would worry that it is a bit of a set up. If the decision was to let them join, the rules about it being a private club and they don’t get to invite others in with out the agreement of everyone else need to be clear. I feel a bit daft even suggesting it - but the trans man has been described as vulnerable. Is there any chance they are being used to gain access to the group? Is there any chance they have a trans woman partner/friend looking to join the group to cause trouble. A bit of time getting to know them, especially how they found out and then just decided to turn up - sounds prudent.

They're trying to join lesbian group, they must think of themselves as a lesbian on some level

^This is the main issue I thought of.

Or they are approaching the only people who might share a mutual attraction.

We can exclude whoever we want. This is a private group.

I’d be inclined to say that you are not accepting ANY new members at the moment. You’ll get back to her in the New Year.

@pattihews
"I guess we need to hold a private meeting without her there to discuss what our issues are and what we're prepared to compromise on and where to draw the line."

Yeah, about that, just hang on a mo...
Why should your group have to make any compromise at all?
They've waltzed in, basically uninvited, without having the courtesy to check first if they would be welcome - at the very least, whoever told them about the group, should have said they'd make tentative enquiries first, though tbh, the trans person should have suggested that happen just out of basic courtesy/manners but hey ho.
Having turned up they've then already laid down the law as far as being called by a male name is concerned, which suggests possibly that it's a bad faith attempt to find a lesbian partner whilst giving the outward impression of being in a hetero relationship, is that really what lesbians want?
At the very least I'd have expected someone keen to join a group for lesbians, to embrace being a lesbian.
What is she looking for that she thinks she'll find in your group?
It would be very unfair, if there's any expectation on her behalf, of getting any type of support from a group of strangers, on first meeting.

It doesn't matter how she sees herself, gender woo woo doesn't exist.

Is she's AFAB then she's welcome in the group.

No. You don't. They can reject women who see themselves as men because a woman who doesn't acknowledge that she is a woman would not mesh with the ethos of a group for women who are exclusively attracted to women. And they can reject men who see themselves as women because they are men. It's perfectly acceptable to have a women's group that is only for biological women who consider themselves women. The fact is that people can identify their way out of a group but you can't identify into one. It's really life not a game of Othello.

Agreed about gender woo. Buy if someone joins a lesbian group believing they are a man and not a lesbian? I dunno. It feels unfair to the rest. I honestly see the argument for both sides. IT’s tricky.

You can't exclude TW if you exclude TM

Private group can exclude anyone they want.

I'm in the suspicious as fuck club.

If they really wanted to be seen as a man they would've been chuffed to be told to go away when initially mistook for one.

If they wanted to be seen by lesbians as a woman they wouldn't be taking hormones and calling themself a man.

You don't turn up uninvited to a private meeting, so either they've somehow managed to find out themselves for whatever their reason is or you have a traitor in your midst.

Ask how she found out about your private group.
Find out who invited her and why.

I would also say no new people allowed to be invited without the group knowing and approving in advance.

Life’s too short. Let her in, the more the merrier.

How can you say "gender woo woo doesn't exist" and then refer to someone as Assigned Female at Birth?

Out of curiosity, what would your stance be on bi women joining? @pattihews

Seems like a trick to me. They’ll wait until you reject/accept them, and then use that to score points somehow.

Transmen generally don’t want to be thought of as women and are very keen on being validated as men. A lesbian group is hardly going to do that. Does this person regret their transition? Presumably not if they still have a beard. Do they think lesbians will fancy them because straight women don’t? I’d dig a little more personally.