Gutted that someone I thought might be GC isn't

[pandemuertos]

NC for this.

In my dept at work, we NEVER discuss any of this, but we do talk a lot about books. The other week a young woke colleague brought in a book by someone called Juno Dawson and said something like "it's like a trans Harry Potter, she's really having a go at JKR" in an approving tone. I didn't comment.

Now, another colleague, I've always had my suspicions might be GC, as she's a bit older, very sound of judgement imo and even though we never discuss it, I have always suspected/hoped. Then yesterday she said something on her fb like "I've just finished the Ink Black Heart, she might have some dodgy opinions but wow, the woman cAn write"

And I just feel gutted. I'm tempted to comment (about the book, which I have read, but also about how much I love JKR) but wonder if that will just cause a world of pain for me.

We had some AWFUL training a few months ago (I posted on here at the time but then got it deleted as I was worried it was outing) - but it was the usual stuff- sex assigned at birth, promoted mermaids, the woman even had a link to binders on her own webpage. I complained about it to my boss, and was taken seriously to be fair, but I was gobsmacked that no one else to my knowledge seemed to have an issue with it and just nodded along.

I was listening to an interview between Louise Perry and Julie Bindel the other day where Perry said it was clear, because of recent developments, that the GC side has "won" this "war" but it just doesn't feel that way for me.

I just feel gutted and depressed about it. Just wanting to vent really.

What does GC mean?

People have different opinions. Bring “gutted and depressed” about that is an over reaction. Not everyone has to agree on every issue. Yours isn’t the only “right” way to think about what are challenging and complex issues.

Tigertigertigertiger
GC = gender critical. It means you know that sex is a biological reality which is determined at conception and can’t be changed. It usually includes views about everybody’s individual right to characteristics/dress/presentation and not having to conform to sex-based stereotypes. It also recognises that there are some inherent differences between men & women which mean it is a good idea to have some spaces and services which are sex-based (breast feeding support, women’s prisons, women’s sport…)
By comparison, gender identity theorists seem to believe that certain characteristics/preferences/dress/presentation should be assigned to a particular ‘gender’. So, if a boy is gay, likes pink & sparkly, prefers playing with dolls, has long hair, enjoys being with girls…. then his gender is in fact ‘girl’. He should be treated exactly as if he is a girl, and should consider making medical changes to his body to conform with that. I’m not an completely sure about this bit as I can’t make it make sense

I’m not sure it is clear GC views have ‘won the war’, although there have definitely been some huge improvements. Unfortunately, the message that these things could not be challenged or even discussed has been absorbed by so many people and institutions which should know better (looking at the universities in particular)
OP, I wonder which views JKR has expressed your colleague finds problematic? I find that most people who say this haven’t read her essays and have no idea what her point of view actually is. Maybe play dumb and ask? If she hasn’t, you could suggest you both read it then discuss 😉

GC= gender critical.

Not the best term, IMHO, but the one that has stuck. Those of us who are GC believe that sex is real, immutable and has consequences in life. Our views are in line with existing legislation in the UK, though you'd never think so from the amount of vitriol that's poured over our heads. Some of us would like the Gender Recognition Act repealed, however, which would certainly be a change of law. But we go about it in legal and time-honoured ways such as writing to out MPs.

Dangerous, aren't we? 🙄

@pandemuertos , I don't think you can do much right now. If you'd had a crystal ball you could have interjected at the time 'oh! I thought Ink Black Heart was terrific.' And then sat back to watch what happened. But none of us has a crystal ball.

At least now you know.

I'm just so glad I don't have to deal with this stuff on a daily basis. My sympathies.

Barnybrown I completely agree that different people will hold very different views on all sorts of things. That is exactly why #nodebate is such an unreasonable position - don’t you agree?

@Barnybrown I think what's making me feel this way is the isolation- I feel there are very few people IRL who I can discuss this with.

However, I do think that when it comes to issues like medical treatment of children, who are often autistic and gay, which may result in their sterilisation and other lifelong consequences, for the sake of a stereotype, that I am on the "right" side. Same for sports, single sex spaces such as rape crisis centres and womens prisons, and the trampling all over of womens rights - I am very clear in my moral Position on these things, it's not just a matter of taste......

I definitely do agree that these issues should be debated. But debate involves not just assuming you are right on every point or polarising opinions into two “sides”. It’s not about feeling you need to educate people you work with so they agree with you - a debate involves genuine listening with an open mind. But I know I will be an absolute outlier on this board in saying this - I actually hate making any comment here because it always results in a horrible pile on so there is no way I would get into a RL debate about this with this lady at work!

I'm not going to "educate people I work with". Like I said I never say ANYTHING about it!

She obviously doesn’t feel particularly strongly anti-JKR, since she’s still buying her books. And saying ‘she might have some dodgy views’ doesn’t necessarily mean that she thinks JKR has dodgy views: it’s the kind of thing I might say to pre-empt anybody on SM telling me I’m a fascist/evil bigot/transphobic/whatever for owning a Rowling book.

It's horrible to feel isolated on this issue OP With regard to your older colleague, I wouldn't say all hope is lost. She's actually reading JKR, so she's definitely not in the 'burn the witch' group. Maybe she's just not thought about the issues that much, or maybe she's sympathetic but knows she can't safely like JKR's writing without including that caveat.

For me, the gutted feeling isn’t so much that views don’t align - because why should they, on any topic? - but that people you thought had the capacity for critical thinking actually haven’t, or that people you expected to be able to see immediately how the unthinking implementation of genderism impacts directly on girls and women can’t see this, or refuse to see this. This is deeply depressing.

Tiger tiger tiger By comparison, gender identity theorists seem to believe that certain characteristics/preferences/dress/presentation should be assigned to a particular ‘gender’. So, if a boy is gay, likes pink & sparkly, prefers playing with dolls, has long hair, enjoys being with girls…. then his gender is in fact ‘girl’. He should be treated exactly as if he is a girl, and should consider making medical changes to his body to conform with that. I’m not an completely sure about this bit as I can’t make it make sense

that’s not exactly true because there are still gay kids that are still going to play with whatever they wanna play with if that doesn’t make them Trans,
there have been people that have posted on Mumsnet who have trans kids who have quite blatantly said that they tried everything counselling psychology everything to help their children and to no avail, As they were happier being the opposite gender et cetera and it’s nothing to do with just stereotyping. I am sure there are trans kids that are now girls that want to play football et cetera it’s not just about gender stereotyping with dolls it’s more than that its inherent feeling that they are not the right sex that they were assigned at birth.

Do you know what cults do? They feel they have to force their opinions onto other people and don’t accept other peoples opinions. Judging by what some people write on this forum I would ascertain that some of you have never met anybody that is trans-let alone any parent of any trans kids so I have and a lot of you are talking rubbish.

I get criticised a lot on this forum by how I write et cetera people seem to think I’m not intelligent or whatever at the end of the day people should stop assuming stuff and start talking to people that actually this is actually affecting them.

Barney, was aimed at my suggestion to actually read JKR’s position before deciding whether it is problematic? I agree, nobody should be trying to educate their colleagues in this area - except that so many organisations demand attendance at training sessions which come from a particular standpoint and don’t allow time/ safe space for anyone to explore the implications, and whether that’s actually reasonable.
I agree with pandemuertos, the whole area can feel very isolating, and it is sometimes nice to know you’re not alone whichever side of the debate you’re on

What she said on FB doesn't means she's not GC, it might mean she subtly wants to promote jk but knows she has to appear woke to do so.

Do you know what the definition of woke meant it was actually the opposite of racists it was to say to be aware of racism so anybody that uses that in a derogatory fashion I kind of now feel is probably one of these people that say all lives matter

Maybe there’s a reason for that, maybe the organisation realises that they may have a small minority of people that feel marginalised by being trans-and they need to help a society as in their workplace not be bigots.
perhaps being on one side where it does marginalise trans people is not very good and not welcome I don’t know maybe food for thought

Just start your posts with an 'Actually' and get it over with.

The issue you describe here is a societal one, the child prefers to play with 'girl' toys etc etc and so feels like a girl. It's not a psychological or medical issue with the individual. If society was truly open and removed gender from the equation then there wouldn't be any notion of girl and boy toys/hair/clothes etc. This child would not think they 'feel like a girl' because there wouldn't be any such notion. There would just be sex.

Freespirit I am completely open that I don’t understand what being trans means, I don’t understand what that ‘inherent feeling’ is and it doesn’t appear to be shared by all other female people. Obviously being trans is different for different people. My description aligns with the TED talk Susie Green gave about her own son’s transition to being a transwoman. I would ask you to explain more, but this might not be the right forum. Can you recommend where I can go to learn more about it please?

While I will agree with you there are certain societal norms that is not just everything to be a trans-child hence why many have to seek psychological help as well with their dysphoria.
and you are making it very simple it the issue is not simple at all hence why when people on this forum post about their own children certain people like yourself will argue that they’re not trans but they know their own children and and there are a certain percentage of people that do end up being trans you cannot deny that

that’s not exactly true because there are still gay kids that are still going to play with whatever they wanna play with if that doesn’t make them Trans,
there have been people that have posted on Mumsnet who have trans kids who have quite blatantly said that they tried everything counselling psychology everything to help their children and to no avail, As they were happier being the opposite gender et cetera and it’s nothing to do with just stereotyping. I am sure there are trans kids that are now girls that want to play football et cetera it’s not just about gender stereotyping with dolls it’s more than that its inherent feeling that they are not the right sex that they were assigned at birth.

Do you know what cults do? They feel they have to force their opinions onto other people and don’t accept other peoples opinions.

That's great that you're willing to listen to other people's views on this @Freespirit42. So many genderists do behave as though they're in a cult with all the "no debate" demands.

Can you help me to understand your view a bit better?

When you say "they were happier being the opposite gender et cetera and it’s nothing to do with just stereotyping" what do you mean by "being the opposite gender" if it's not about stereotypes to do with clothes, interests, behaviour etc? To me, gender is stereotypes, so I don't understand how you can separate these things. What do you mean by "gender" if it's not stereotypes?

Also this: "its inherent feeling that they are not the right sex that they were assigned at birth". Is this about hating their bodies or about a dislike of the stereotypes associated with their sex?

My comment was in response to Waterwitch’s direct question to me about #nodebate being an unreasonable position .

I agree - we should be able to debate these issues.

But the difficulty is that you don’t want to debate them - you are entrenched in your opinions and you believe that anyone who disagrees with you is less intelligent than you are and ill-educated. So you say things like “people you thought had the capacity for critical thinking actually haven’t” without a trace of insight into how this sounds . It is inpossible to have a debate with people who start from a position of believing their opinions are not only the only truth but that those opinions make the holder morally and intellectually superior to anyone who doesn’t agree with them or has a different experience or world view.

So you're upset that someone has an open mind and doesn't think the same way as you?

How absolutely dreadful for you OP! You must be totally heartbroken

I love the Harry Potter books and Cormoran Strike - but I couldn't a shit what JK Rowling thinks about gender.

Well why don’t you go and talk to a trans person, listen to them there’s plenty on Twitter there’s plenty on podcasts on YouTube I’ll tell you what is really good documentary and people have took the piss out of me on this forum is the Georgia stone one on Netflix that made me cry. She talks about how being trans as a child has affected her on everything