Gutted that someone I thought might be GC isn't

[pandemuertos]

NC for this.

In my dept at work, we NEVER discuss any of this, but we do talk a lot about books. The other week a young woke colleague brought in a book by someone called Juno Dawson and said something like "it's like a trans Harry Potter, she's really having a go at JKR" in an approving tone. I didn't comment.

Now, another colleague, I've always had my suspicions might be GC, as she's a bit older, very sound of judgement imo and even though we never discuss it, I have always suspected/hoped. Then yesterday she said something on her fb like "I've just finished the Ink Black Heart, she might have some dodgy opinions but wow, the woman cAn write"

And I just feel gutted. I'm tempted to comment (about the book, which I have read, but also about how much I love JKR) but wonder if that will just cause a world of pain for me.

We had some AWFUL training a few months ago (I posted on here at the time but then got it deleted as I was worried it was outing) - but it was the usual stuff- sex assigned at birth, promoted mermaids, the woman even had a link to binders on her own webpage. I complained about it to my boss, and was taken seriously to be fair, but I was gobsmacked that no one else to my knowledge seemed to have an issue with it and just nodded along.

I was listening to an interview between Louise Perry and Julie Bindel the other day where Perry said it was clear, because of recent developments, that the GC side has "won" this "war" but it just doesn't feel that way for me.

I just feel gutted and depressed about it. Just wanting to vent really.

who are both their own or where the parents have not given explicit approval.

oops.

who are both not their own or where the parents have not given explicit approval.

Yes crinimals are a minority but we don’t say for instance I use these as examples not my feelings. We don’t ban fat people from bakers because they may like cakes etc or we don’t ban women from being with kids or men because a few may be oeodophiles

What on earth?

Being fat and/or liking cake is not any sort of crime so completely irrelevant to the discussion.

As to the second point: you must surely know that anyone wishing to work or volunteer in particular settings must by law be vetted? Whether male or female, anyone interested in working in schools, nurseries, health care settings, Guide and Scout groups etc etc are put through DRB checks. This isn’t foolproof of course, because the person may have nefarious intentions and just hasn’t been caught yet or is yet to actually offend. But as a system, it’s the best we’ve got for now.

It's rather frustrating watching people who think we don't make laws for the, er, minority of people who are criminals, or we allow children to go off willy-nilly with anyone, where safeguarding and risk assessment doesn't exist, and DBS checks don't happen.

Complete cloud cuckoo land, in order to pretend that the violation of women's boundaries, and the obliteration of safeguarding isn't happening.

it's either naivete bordering on woeful irresponsibility, or it's deliberate.

I see we have yet another live example of the total lack of coherent argument from an ardent genderist. Honestly if I was on the fence here, I could only come to one conclusion reading this.

Which lives don't matter to you, @Freespirit42 ?

Yes crinimals are a minority but we don’t say for instance I use these as examples not my feelings. We don’t ban fat people from bakers because they may like cakes etc or we don’t ban women from being with kids or men because a few may be oeodophiles

if we’re using this example we also don’t affirm anorexics thoughts that they are too fat and give them medical treatment to help them lose weight.

we acknowledge that their thoughts don’t represent biological reality and help them to see that they aren’t fat.

Good grief, yes, we all know the origins of the word "woke" and why it came to change it's meaning as well.

You know BLM is a controversial movement even in the black community, right?

Indeed.

She knows that she is a girl or shall I say a woman,

How? I know I am a woman because I am female ,but how can a male person know they are a woman when their only frame of reference is society's stereotypical expectations of women and their roles .

And that is the $64,000 question, isn't it. How does a man know they are a woman, when the term woman means adult human female, of or denoting the sex who bears eggs.

Don't assume. Some friends of mine said similar, I was surprised and asked if they'd seen what JKR wrote and sent them a link. They didn't believe me at the time but they were good enough friends (and fond enough of an argument!) to read. They apologised and admire her stance.

Well exactly.

Not the outcome I expected when I started the thread tbh!

OP, if one of your colleagues is introducing this topic into conversation, I think it is perfectly OK to say what your views are or to ask questions about theirs.

They have felt comfortable giving their views, so its ok for you to give yours.

If GC woman always stay silent, it does give the view that our views don't exist, that they are not held by normal, reasonable and good people - but just the bogey women of trans ideology fantasy. Staying silent gives the impression their views are unquestioned and unquestionable. And they are not.

Yes, sorry for my part in the derailment OP
i hope you will get the chance to engage with your colleague on this. I do think, the more people talk and ask questions, the more obvious it becomes that there is a great deal of common ground among most of the silent majority population

I'm really sorry, I've also had this experience recently and it's gutting.

Incidentally, what was the Bindel and Perry interview? I'd actually love to hear them debate rather than one interview the other. I'm really interested to hear where they agree and where they may not (I have no idea if they don't however.)

The thing is, OP, no regular person genuinely thinks rapists should access women in prison, or rape survivors shouldn't have access to an all-female only refuge, or men should be competing in women's sport.

They have been led to believe that there is so much more to it than that. Toilets can be a bit of a stumbling block, but the suggestion of a third space usually sorts that out.

You could try coming at it from that angle. That you don't think it's a particularly dodgy opinion that women should have a word for themselves and rapists shouldn't go to women's prisons.

It's often completely unnecessary to get down into the minutiae of toilets and changing rooms, because dyed in the wool trans-activists do the job for you, by claiming batshittery like men are genuinely, biological women, and absolutely rapists should go to female prisons.

Suddenly, the issue of toilets and why you might want to keep all these men out becomes a little clearer to all concerned.

The only advice I can give is to find other areas to highlight as sexist and to make sure awareness is raised and then perhaps later gently inquire what the views were that were "dodgy." Ask more questions and include one that says "isn't that a tad sexist?"

Yes, Very few realise that not many have operations as this would be sterilisation and it's against human rights to be told to do so to obtain legal docs.

@WarriorN it was on a spectator podcast, I'll see if I can find it

@WarriorN

m.youtube.com/watch?v=8g-aZDQqrvg

It was here, about 45 mins in

Flicking back through the thread - I've just watched Helen Joyce at Cambridge and the point she makes about average people not understanding biology is very good, as are all her points.

10,000 ways genes are expressed completely differently in women than in men.

@pandemuertos I don't know if you've watched it but it's helpful to review some key points so you can assert yourself at a later date.

Thank you so much!

John McWhorter wouldn't agree - indeed his book Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America sets out his case pretty powerfully. But doubtless McWhorter is "the wrong kind of black"...

Oh what a fascinating discussion. Thank you for sharing.

I'm going to watch again; love the mumsnet mentions <waves>!

Also though, I wonder if Perry's assertion is more that the conservatives here are being forced to be "more traditionally left" leaning due to many recent events: femicide, austerity (which they caused and now have to mop up) fall out from the pandemic and the public's renewed recognition of the value of the NHS, mental health in education, impact of online harms, RSE and attempting to pull back on misogyny within schools and society.

The tories have been forced to look at women's needs and issues and find solutions. They've been forced to look at the gender issue, especially for children.

I think some of this would have happened if labour had been in power as the harms of all of the above would have been presented to them to solve and tackle.

On this space of mn, it's only the tories who appear listening at the moment.

I am also always reminded of a triggernometry episode where a researcher of a think tank said that only the tories were interested in their research; labour didn't bother. And that's one if the reasons why labour lost the last GE.

I also don't think it has been won at all.

I think it's about to get a hell of a lot messier because of how the safeguarding issues we discuss here have been scooped up by trump et Al in America.

It's certainly getting messier in schools.