Gutted that someone I thought might be GC isn't

[pandemuertos]

NC for this.

In my dept at work, we NEVER discuss any of this, but we do talk a lot about books. The other week a young woke colleague brought in a book by someone called Juno Dawson and said something like "it's like a trans Harry Potter, she's really having a go at JKR" in an approving tone. I didn't comment.

Now, another colleague, I've always had my suspicions might be GC, as she's a bit older, very sound of judgement imo and even though we never discuss it, I have always suspected/hoped. Then yesterday she said something on her fb like "I've just finished the Ink Black Heart, she might have some dodgy opinions but wow, the woman cAn write"

And I just feel gutted. I'm tempted to comment (about the book, which I have read, but also about how much I love JKR) but wonder if that will just cause a world of pain for me.

We had some AWFUL training a few months ago (I posted on here at the time but then got it deleted as I was worried it was outing) - but it was the usual stuff- sex assigned at birth, promoted mermaids, the woman even had a link to binders on her own webpage. I complained about it to my boss, and was taken seriously to be fair, but I was gobsmacked that no one else to my knowledge seemed to have an issue with it and just nodded along.

I was listening to an interview between Louise Perry and Julie Bindel the other day where Perry said it was clear, because of recent developments, that the GC side has "won" this "war" but it just doesn't feel that way for me.

I just feel gutted and depressed about it. Just wanting to vent really.

To quote Harry Potter "The world isn't made up of good people and death eaters" - aka - opinions are varied and nuanced and most people aren't solidly in one "camp" or another. Which is exactly how it should be!

Fab quote !

Well my trans friend who is taking hormones and is looking for surgery on a very long waiting list though. She doesn’t necessarily wear girl clothes all the time as in like skirts and make up and stuff like that she can rock up in like leggings and not really look like she’s bothered doing any make up but that’s me I’m the same I don’t bother doing make up and I was born a girl. As I say there is no stereotypes because there are people that are boys that might like pink stuff and they’re not trans-it’s not about that it’s about a feeling. She knows that she is a girl or shall I say a woman, And my friend is much more happier now living this life being a true person that they are now that might be a concept that is very difficult for some people to understand but that is the reality for trans people I would never want to be trans because it must be so hard

@Barnybrown I don't see that here.

I see people having intelligent nuanced discussions whether they examine their own views. Being GC seems a broad church to me- I've seen posts where people disagree on issues like pronouns, toilets, and people recognise that there are shades of grey here.

It's the other side who say "TWAW" #nodebate

Do you understand why the other side says that though cause I’m on the other side then the gender critical side.
It’s not just a theory for trans people they are having to live that life there having to live the life of looking around people that are debating their lives this is not just a theory for these people to be talking about this is their true identity their true lives that’s why people get pissed off and think about why are you debating their lives because for you you don’t have to live it they have to live it

What is gender @Freespirit42?

I know a number of trans people in real life and my experience of talking to them has not been of #nodebate.

Interesting that in a post trying to argue that “being GC is a broad church” capable of open debate you go on to describe people who may hold different views or be trans as “the other side”.

Dictionary def for you ,,
either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

Freespirit I will watch the documentary you suggest. I have tried to engage, both online and in real life. Genuine questions and requests for clarification are met with ‘transphobe’ or ‘bigot’ responses, or often far worse.

It is also entirely clear that some men (transwomen or not) are using this issue to attack women’s boundaries, or frankly, just to attack women. I imagine genuine transwomen find this abhorrent, but I seldom see it acknowledged anywhere but here

They defined tras as the other side to. And yes it is most trans people aren’t gonna be critical of their own lives are they?

I would say that there may be a select few dodgy men but here’s the thing we never ever ever make any law because there are a few minority of people that might be dodgy or criminal.
Women are being killed and raped by men majority of who they know not transmit and the idea that in some countries were self ID is a big thing anyway they’re not seeing the rise of numbers that some people perpetuate on groups like this by trans women.
so when we fear about certain minorities of trans women that maybe some dodgy criminals but there are dodgy criminals in women there was a woman the other day that chopped off another woman’s head and she was a woman just like me and just like you do with it and make a law that says oh cat being close to other women in case a couple will start chopping your heads off we do not.
So my argument is as a woman I’m not trans-that I am not going to affect trans-people on the off chance there may be a couple very small minority that might be a bit dodgy because if somebody is going to rape you they don’t give a shit what toilet you are in there I’m just going anyway and they don’t have to dress up as a trans-woman

Totally agree with this. It is deeply depressing.

You do realise that it's genderists who have been saying "no debate" for years, don't you? It's impossible to have a debate with people who say "no debate" (or shout "bigot") every time you ask them a question or say something they disagree with.

I'm not so entrenched in my position that I wouldn't change it if someone could present evidence to me that I'm wrong. If anyone wants to present evidence that people can change sex or that we all have a gender identity, I'm willing to listen.

I actually think that most people who unthinkingly chant TRA mantras aren't necessarily unintelligent, but just haven't thought much about the issues. They just need to be engaged in debate. If you can't explain your position and how you arrived at it, how well-founded is it?

Interesting that in a post trying to argue that “being GC is a broad church” capable of open debate you go on to describe people who may hold different views or be trans as “the other side”.

So what? There are clearly two sides. Just like in politics there are left and right but within those sides there are differences- I think this is the case amongst GC feminists. I think it is less so amongst TRAs (who are not necessary the same as actual trans people, to address your other point).

Barny I understand that this affects trans people, but it also affects women and girls. Why should Sarah not have access to any female-only space to discuss her rape trauma? Why should women who want/need it not have access to a female-only swimming pond when there is a mixed sex one which could easily be used by transwomen? This really does affect women and girls in everyday life - or the traffic on this board wouldn’t be so high. When there are competing needs, accommodation needs to be found, and that requires debate

Freespirit42 ‘As I say there is no steretypes because there are people that are boys that might like pink stuff and they’re not trans it’s not about that it’s about a feeling.’

That’s what it boils down to - a feeling. An individual has every right to have that feeling but it is completely subjective and society shouldn’t e reordered around someone’s ‘feeling’. By that I mean that if someone identifies as a woman they shouldn’t be discriminated against e.g.in employment, housing etc but I don’t have to believe that their subjective feelings override their actual biological sex. I will still view them as a man e.g. for sport, enforcing single sex spaces etc. My belief in biological sex should not be overridden so that biological men are allowed to enter single sex spaces. My consent is not for other people to give.

Exactly.

We cannot legislate based on "feelings"

Being a woman is not a "feeling"

Women in Iran are not currently being executed because of their feelings or identities. It's because of Biology which they can't identify out of.

Loling at the Sunday morning faux naievete visitors on the this thread

“what’s GC??” followed a few minutes later by several long posts that shows they know exactly what it is

and you’re right, I lose instant respect for people who believe you can change sex because it’s biologically impossible. I also lose respect for women who centre men over women

And yet trans people in iran gay people to have also been executed so mute point and we do legislate as gender is a protected characteristic so therefore you are wrong.

"I've just finished the Ink Black Heart, she might have some dodgy opinions but wow, the woman cAn write"

Are you sure she's a believer? Or is she as GC as you, but nervous of the backlash? Is that little clause a token gesture to avoid attack by the anti-blasphemy policers?

Forgetting that there are trans men to you guys never talk about them though so it’s not about mens rights at all it’s about trans rights.

‘I would say that there may be a select few dodgy men but here’s the thing we never ever ever make any law because there are a few minority of people that might be dodgy or criminal.‘

Of course we do- have you never had a DBS check? That’s how safeguarding works.

Same principle when you buy a house and have to show multiple forms of ID to prevent money laundering (to give only one example out of many possible ones) -the laws are made to close loopholes used by the minority with no implication that EVERYONE is dodgy.

Freespirit no, gender isn’t a protected characteristic. And how could it be?

Gender is not a protected characteristic, gender reassignment is not matter what Stonewall say. However sex is a protected characteristic. There is no hierarchy of characteristics so gender reassignment should not be preferred above sex.

Op, to get back to your original post. I would absolutely recommend saying something. Nothing confrontational, just a question like 'what dodgy opinions does she have?' Then tease out what they are actually saying and calmly counteract it. Chances are this woman reads the Guardian and BBC as her main news sources, and therefore accepts the pov they are giving her. It doesn't mean she isn't intelligent or capable of critical thinking. Every single one of us needs to get a bit braver and have these conversations. I've had so many real life conversations which have 'peaked'friends and colleagues because what im saying makes sense. That's why the tra position needs #nodebate to survive.