I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

Only if you think women can't tell the difference between women and men.

Sick of the what about butch women/short haired women/tall women etc etc attempted gotchas.

Honestly? Nobody really polices toilets and most people are capable of following rules. It is important that women are able to challenge anyone they think is not playing fair - whether that's a man claiming to be a tw or a tm. The important thing is that the space is understood to be single SEX and women can challenge this and be supported if needed. This is how it used to be and it worked.

I'm not taking about butch women. With men who are fully transitioned I don't think you can always tell, no. And if you're knowingly and willingly accepting trans men into your spaces does that not give men who just get off on being in women's toilets a different sort of lie they can tell?

Yeah but, trans men will be fully entitled to be in women's toilets even if they're fully transitioned with a dick and everything so how would challenging people who appear male be any more successful than it is now?

The difference is that the man pretending to be a transman would not be "legally" allowed to be there , it would be easy to prove that they were only there for dodgy reasons and have them thrown out.

Yet there would be no way of proving whether a man was a genuine transwoman or not.

There is a reason TRAs always bring it back to toilets rather than women's refuges, prisons or hospital wards.

And before the 'you are going to get raped in a loo anyway, the sign on the door isn't a forcefield to keep predators out you know, so you might as well just let anyone in who wants to' brigade turn up, it is a statistical fact that single sex facilities such as toilets and changing rooms are safer for women than unisex ones

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html?amp

So your solution is…..? Is this a case if men are going to do it anyway so just let men in and make all spaces mixed sex? Do you honestly believe no one can tell the difference between a male and female. Soooooo tired of these ‘what about threads’. Change the record do dear.

The toilet question is quite the red herring.

Toilets have been separated into male and female facilities for decades for many reasons - some for safety, some for convenience. For example, it is much more efficient to have a row of urinals for men to use, but it does mean exposing their genitals so for their dignity they are given a space understood to be single sex for them to do so, and cubicles for anyone wanting further privacy or - ahem - anything else other than a wee.

Were anyone - male of female - standing opposite the row of urinals ogling penises in a predatory way, they would be challenged, and hastily ejected. Can you see how much easier it is for men to police that?

Can you also see how if a predatory woman positioned herself at a urinal, maybe utilising a she wee or simil3, under this current climate it would be harder to challenge her and have her appropriately sanctioned? She could, after all, just claim to be a trans man - which requires nothing other than to say 'I am a man' even if she is wearing a full face of make up and knee high boots and doesn't actually have a penis - and it would be her accusers facing the full wrath of the law for being transphobic.

Now think of a ladies loos. Think of the extra things ladies need loos for, and how most of that requires pretty much stripping from the waist down. And how much of a difference it makes not being able to challenge the guy in the cubicle at the end, and get nearby security to escort him safely away......

There's a massive physical difference between the average man or transwoman and the average woman or transman.

I can usually spot a transwoman is male from over 100m away - even someone who has had expensive facial surgery will generally be tall and still have wide shoulders and tiny hips. There's no disguising the male gait.

Transmen tend to be much smaller than men, and I think many women instinctively perceive them to be less threatening because they tend to have narrow shoulders, more feminine faces than men and a female gait.

If I'm walking home in the dark and I'm being followed, I instinctively feel scared if it's someone male behind me. If the person appears to be female, I instantly feel reassured. Instincts work on sex, not gender, because it is a split-second physical reaction to cues such as size and gait rather than hairstyle or clothing.

So if mixed sex toilets are so safe and good for women, as this I’d what the TRA claim. Why are Amnesty international running campaigns in India Pakistan and Africa for women to have single sex toilets?

The reverse. The more it is seen as unacceptable for a man to be in a woman's space the fewer men will try to destroy women's spaces. There will always be some who try.

We e done this thread to death on here. It was boring the first time and it's still boring.

Transmen pass better than transwomen but they don't present any threat. So I don't care which loo they use.

Poor effort OP (at thinking, before anyone accuses me of trollhunting).

I was in a crowded public toilet in an entertainment venue when I saw someone with a beard. For about a second I thought they were male. Then I clocked how they moved, their shoulder to hip ratio, the lack of an Adam's apple, their height, their gait, their carrying angle...lots of little factors, and realised they were a transman , and didn't say anything. You can usually tell.

Men who have ‘fully transitioned’. ( by which I presume you mean have had the bits off) are still clearly recognisable as men. They are still tall, big hands , big feet , broad shoulders, you can’t change the whole body.

don’t seem to be able to change the personality traits, either.

Women can always tell.

The problem remains the same: men.

Let women have single sex spaces for their safety, their dignity, and because they just bloody want them.

Women can tell someone’s sex. A split second glance at a trans man, who almost always have facial hair, might cause a millisecond’s pause, but then I’d correctly sex them as female and there would be no issue. The Ladies toilets aren’t for people of a ‘feminine gender’, they’re for people of the female sex. That includes female people presenting in a masculine way.

The presence or absence of a dick on a trans man is utterly irrelevant. It’s not the same and it doesn’t affect the way they appear or disguise their sex. I’ve never heard of a man (male) claiming to be a trans man. It wouldn’t work anyway unless they shrunk, changed their hips, hid their Adam’s apple, etc etc. The chances of a man who could even begin to pass as a trans man, also wishing to break women’s boundaries like that and enter a female toilet is surely minuscule.

With men who are fully transitioned I don't think you can always tell, no

'Full transition' in no way affects the tell tale signs that men are men. Height, shoulder breadth, gait, size of hands/feet. I'm astonished that you think it does.

As well as the size of nose/ears, hairline, skull ridge. So many signifiers…

Entitled yes but they know how they might be experienced by other women so generally they choose not to do that because they have sense and empathy.

We don’t need rigid sex based segregation women who pass as men are no threat to men, therefore there is no problem with them being in the men’s toilets.

We just need men to stay out of the women’s however well they think they pass.

We’ll colour me shocked another thread about toilets 🙄

Why is it always about men will abuse womens boundaries anyway and never about how decent men wouldn't dream about making women uncomfortable and barging into the ladies?

Just because men can come up with another lie to be in wonen spaces, doesnt mean that womens spaces shouldnt and cant exist.

I care. It's about privacy and dignity: not just physical threat. A transman is female and should use female facilities.

Many of my male friends do not wish to see women, however they present, in their spaces. And I think that's wholly acceptable.