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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I have a question about toilets

300 replies

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 10:41

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

OP posts:
WiseUpJanetWeiss · 30/10/2022 14:18

The crux of what I'm asking, really, is what do GC people want, in the context of toilets and changing rooms?

I want them to be single sex i.e. no penises in the women’s facility. Is that so hard to understand?

Soontobe60 · 30/10/2022 14:22

HipTightOnions · 30/10/2022 14:06

What does "retaining single sex spaces" mean if not enforcing that everyone has to use toilets according to their physical sex?

Or they could, of their own volition, do the right thing.

Like my husband and son and brother and colleagues and friends and every other decent man.

Why do assume transpeople need "enforcing"? Can they not be trusted?

Strange that, isn’t it. My husband, late father, brothers, nephews, male friends (even the very effeminate gay ones wearing make up and heels) wouldn’t dream of going into the ladies. In fact, they’d probably challenge any bloke they saw coming out of them. It’s almost as if it’s innate.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/10/2022 14:22

the problem you're going to have OP is that many (most?) of the men who enjoy role playing as women are acting out a fetish

they're not going to be realistic about how well they 'pass'

so using 'passing' as any kind of measure ain't going to work

it's much easier to say you use the toilet that matches your sex

if you enjoy role playing as a member of the opposite sex and want to spice it up a bit by invading spaces set aside for the opposite sex, members of that sex should be free to notice your sex and ask you to leave

you can't stop people behaving like dicks

but you can make it socially unacceptable

Livesensation · 30/10/2022 14:26

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Previously banned poster.

Clarice99 · 30/10/2022 14:26

I care. It's about privacy and dignity: not just physical threat. A transman is female and should use female facilities.
Many of my male friends do not wish to see women, however they present, in their spaces. And I think that's wholly acceptable.

@SweetSenorita

I'm interested in how many women/transmen your male friends encounter in 'their spaces', and what those spaces are?

Also, what threat or source of discomfort do these women/transmen present to your male friends?

Genuine questions.

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 14:52

What is the existing law because I'm confused and I'm not sure what it is. What toilets are trans people currently supposed to use in law? Is there a law?

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tingalayo · 30/10/2022 14:55

Going to ignore the Katie Dolotowski bit because I don't know anything about that case, sorry.

OP posts:
ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 14:56

I want them to be single sex i.e. no penises in the women’s facility. Is that so hard to understand?

Its not difficult to understand. Its not even difficult to implement. I find it bizarre that prople are pretending that theyve never heard of the concept of women only spaces.

We just need the government to say that if a facility is advertised for women, that means something. So when a man goes into the space women arent abused, gaslighted or arrested for challenging him.

If organisations dont want to provide female only spaces, they shouldnt be able to advertise that they do.

Its as if they know that single sex spaces are wanted by women, but dont want the hassle of saying no to men. If women wanted to share these spaces with men, they wouldnt be any need to have 'woman' on the door in the first place.

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 14:59

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 14:52

What is the existing law because I'm confused and I'm not sure what it is. What toilets are trans people currently supposed to use in law? Is there a law?

There is no law around who can use which toilet.

Single sex toilets for women have existed fairly well so far on the idea that the good men will stay out so that we know who the bad men are.

Obviously a shift in societal custom which means that any man who says he is 'more comfortable' in the ladies should be allowed to use the ladies, as with a culture of self id, makes the above much more difficult.

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:02

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 30/10/2022 14:18

The crux of what I'm asking, really, is what do GC people want, in the context of toilets and changing rooms?

I want them to be single sex i.e. no penises in the women’s facility. Is that so hard to understand?

Are trans women okay if they don't have a penis?

OP posts:
tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:03

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 14:59

There is no law around who can use which toilet.

Single sex toilets for women have existed fairly well so far on the idea that the good men will stay out so that we know who the bad men are.

Obviously a shift in societal custom which means that any man who says he is 'more comfortable' in the ladies should be allowed to use the ladies, as with a culture of self id, makes the above much more difficult.

See here's why I'm confused because someone above said they want enforcement of the existing law.

OP posts:
Signalbox · 30/10/2022 15:04

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 14:12

So you don't want a change in law? You just want everybody's attitudes to change and for ALL trans women to start using the men's toilets of their own volition because they've listened to you? They're not on Mumsnet are they and this is the only place these discussions take place, it's an echo chamber.

A change in law is not really necessary and would probably be un-policeable anyway. As pp stated there is already law that allows for single-sex spaces, organisations just need to implement the exceptions. It's not even necessary for people's attitudes to change, most people understand the need for sex-based provision and male people know they should not go into the ladies. It's just a minority of people who ignore social convention (probably for a variety of reasons). Any argument that goes "TW have been doing this for years" is just a statement confirming that TW have never respected women's boundaries and they are unlikely to start now. As I said before, there will always be males that attempt to step on women's boundaries and there isn't too much we can do about that but that is no reason to abandon the principle of single-sex provision.

Signalbox · 30/10/2022 15:07

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:03

See here's why I'm confused because someone above said they want enforcement of the existing law.

Use of the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act allows for organisations to lawfully discriminate against TW (including those with a GRC) if there is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

HipTightOnions · 30/10/2022 15:13

Use of the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act allows for organisations to lawfully discriminate against TW (including those with a GRC) if there is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

And AIUI workplaces and, crucially, schools, are not just permitted to provide single-sex toilets but are required to.

There is nothing in law that provides for discrimination by gender.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 15:16

The government has said that they want to ensure that all new public buildings have separate male and female toilets and that universal toilets are allowed but in addition to and not at the expense of single facilities.

That suggests that there is a known, legal difference between single sex and both sex toilets. Otherwise nobody would have a clue what that statement means.

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 15:16

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:03

See here's why I'm confused because someone above said they want enforcement of the existing law.

This is how I understand it:

There is no law anywhere which says that any space has to be single sex. However, there are exemptions within the Equality Act which mean that an organisation or business can exclude males, including males with a GRC, in certain situations, 'where there is a legitimate aim'. So women's refuges do not have to take transwomen if they don't want to, a single sex space in that situation would be a legitimate aim. I don't know for sure, but I think this also means that, for example, a gym could lawfully say that no males are allowed in their female changing room, however those males identify. This is possibly what PP means by 'upholding the law'. You are allowed to exclude males in certain situations.

Stonewall seem to have created their own law around this, telling organisations that they are breaking the law if they don't allow transwomen to use their single sex services. They say this is because 'gender identity' is also a protected characteristic in the EA, but it isn't, its 'gender reassignment', although even that is woolly. And there are definitely single sex exemptions in the EA.

I am happy to be correct on any of this by someone more knowledgeable by the way.

TheABC · 30/10/2022 15:18

OP, would you be happy for a 60-year-old man to follow a teenage girl into the toilets?

According to Eddie Izzard (boy mode/girl mode, no GRC) it's fine and he should not be challenged about it.

I disagree. It's safeguarding 101 to challenge. I'm not sure what you are finding difficult here.

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 15:19

HipTightOnions · 30/10/2022 15:13

Use of the single-sex exceptions in the Equality Act allows for organisations to lawfully discriminate against TW (including those with a GRC) if there is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim.

And AIUI workplaces and, crucially, schools, are not just permitted to provide single-sex toilets but are required to.

There is nothing in law that provides for discrimination by gender.

What's an AIUI workplace?

Yes, schools are legally required to provide single sex facilities, but again, Stonewall have been coming in with their own law and confusing things about what 'single sex' means.

HipTightOnions · 30/10/2022 15:20

AIUI = as I understand it.

Smilelesstalkmore · 30/10/2022 15:28

HipTightOnions · 30/10/2022 15:20

AIUI = as I understand it.

Oh I see! Grin

I the problem has come about that certain places have to have single sex spaces, but when someone can change their legal sex, as with a GRC, obviously what this actually means becomes confusing.

This is exactly the sort of stuff that I am hoping will be hashed out and nailed down with the GRA reform Bill in Scotland. There has already been talk from Labour MSPs about how important it is for single sex spaces to be upheld, and for too long there has been confusion from organisations and institutions about what is and isn't enshrined in law.

nilsmousehammer · 30/10/2022 15:29

Round and round and round.... so bored with this time warp conversation.

I find it very transphobic that you suggest that trans people would use female only spaces intentionally to cause confusion and distress to female people. Why would a decent person wish to do this? This isn't a trans thing, it's a person who's an arse to other people thing.

Many TM speak about intentionally not using female only spaces because they know their appearance has changed to the point it may cause confusion and distress or exclude females.

Why do we have to have the bloody endless silly questions and wangling as opposed to TQ+ political lobby supporters able to cope with the idea that some female people need single sex spaces or they are distressed and excluded? Why is there apparently such huge difficulty in managing to care about other humans? What help do you need with this skill?

Signalbox · 30/10/2022 15:33

I the problem has come about that certain places have to have single sex spaces, but when someone can change their legal sex, as with a GRC, obviously what this actually means becomes confusing.

Exactly. The practicality of how you discriminate against TW when all of their documents state they are female is never covered when the likes of Keir Starmer talks about the importance of single sex spaces whilst at the same time advocating for self ID.

StillWeRise · 30/10/2022 15:33

that's right, there aren't 'laws about toilets' but there are laws allowing single sex provision to exist, including single sex toilets
so, whereas normally most places and services have to be equally available to males and females by law, there are exceptions (under the Equality act) if a good reason can be given, so that a changing room or toilet can be designated for males or females only
where someone breaks the social convention around single sex toilets, as I understand it, if the law were to be invoked it would be something like a public order offence

NeverOneBiscuit · 30/10/2022 15:39

OP. You asked what I meant about retaining single sex spaces.

As pp’s have said, I mean retaining them for women. I’ve never seen or heard a discussion where men are worried about women who identify as men using the mens toilet. For good reason. Women (with vanishingly few exceptions) don’t present a physical or sexual threat to men. Statistically men are far more of a threat to women.

And before you say not all men…Of course not all men. Which is why we have safeguarding measures in society, as those who present a threat to others don’t advertise the fact.

Historically single sex spaces exist for women because of the threat of male violence, alongside female specific issues due to our biology, and matters of privacy and dignity.

It’s a depressing thought, but also a hard reality. That reality is reflected in women wishing to retain these spaces, and not to invite in male bodied people. Even those men who have undergone transitional surgery (which is a tiny percentage of trans identified people) have still, in the main, gone through male puberty and male socialisation. They are therefore generally physically stronger, even after taking female hormones. Evidence also suggests that male pattern violence is not reduced to any significant degree in males who have medically transitioned.

My concern isn’t about where men who identify as women go to the toilet. It’s about retaining single sex spaces for women. If the answer for men identifying as women is a third space then they can pursue that. Much like women had to create and fund the women’s refuge movement decades ago.

The answer to the problem for one group of people is not to encroach on the rights of another group.

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:40

Okay, so the law is vague. Someone above said women's toilets should mean nobody with a penis is allowed. What about trans women without a penis and trans men with a penis? How is biological sex defined and how should it be defined in any hypothetical law? Has to have been born with a vagina? Can't reference chromosomes because people don't tend to know theirs.

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