I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

Don't you want strict sex segregation? Wouldn't that mean passing transmen wouldn't be allowed to use male toilets anymore?

Would you want him using the female toilets from now on? If everyone had to use toilets according to biological sex then he would have to. Wouldn't it worry a lot of women who saw him, and make them feel unsafe?

If your friend passes as male, obviously wants to be seen as male, men dont know your friend isnt male, and your friend doesnt pose any danger or uncomfort to men, why would your friend break cover and go into the female spaces? It makes no sense.

Im sure you and your friend understand that sex segregation is usually for the benefit of women not men.

The reason we are having this discussion is because males who do not pass as women want to use female spaces and cause women to fell discomfort and increased danger. Its not about females who want to pass and do pass as male.

What does "retaining single sex spaces" mean if not enforcing that everyone has to use toilets according to their physical sex? What are GC people asking for?

Single sex spaces for women.

Why do you assume we are thinking about the men? If they want single sex spaces, they are free to campaign themselves.

The crux of what I'm asking, really, is what do GC people want, in the context of toilets and changing rooms? I've heard talk of third spaces but that absolutely will not happen because every building in the country would have to be refitted to having three types of toilets instead of two. So if not third spaces, what exactly? A change of law for all? A change of law applying only to women? Or just a different cultural understanding? What?

What does this mean in practice? Law? What sort of law?

You said would I be happy with any man looking person in womens toilets. As TM do not often look like men but most TW do, then no I wouldn’t. Would I be ok with. GNC female using the female toilet, absolutely.
but it kind of proves the point that TW are in no danger in mens toilets doesn’t it? If a female can use the mens toilets with no problem, then so can TW. Just shows men are way more accepting of GNC people than they’re made our to be. So it’s a win win. Men, TW and TM can use the mens and women get their own single sex facility. We’ve solved it! Well done.

We want single sex spaces for women.

When a sign is on a door saying women only or female only, a male doesn't have the right to ignore the sign, or change the definition of those words to include himself.

Why do you think womens toilets and changing rooms mean?

Do you think those signs mean nothing and are just for decoration?

who is this 'you' you are speaking to?

do you think mumsnet FWR posts are all written by one woman?

OK you're onto me. I've been wanting to come clean for ages

i'm fucking knackered

i'm pleased you've unmasked me really

now can we stop talking about fucking toilets?

@ZuttZeVootEeeVo I still don't know what that would mean in practice. Would specific thing would you like to change?

What does "retaining single sex spaces" mean if not enforcing that everyone has to use toilets according to their physical sex?

Or they could, of their own volition, do the right thing.

Like my husband and son and brother and colleagues and friends and every other decent man.

Why do assume transpeople need "enforcing"? Can they not be trusted?

Different people could give different answers maybe, if they wanted? What's your own personal answer?

my answer is why are you so obsessed with toilets?

You know the definition of women in the EqA is a female of any age, and that sex segregate is legal?

So you don't want a change in law? You just want everybody's attitudes to change and for ALL trans women to start using the men's toilets of their own volition because they've listened to you? They're not on Mumsnet are they and this is the only place these discussions take place, it's an echo chamber.

let's talk about Katie Dolotowski

his carer let him use a ladies toilet in a supermarket.

while in there, he grabbed a 10 year old girl by her face, forced her into a cubical and attempted to force her to remove her trousers.

katie's carer let him go into the ladies because he enjoys role playing as a woman

do you think he was in the correct toilet OP?

So you've already got what you want? What do you want to change?

There's a lot of chat about toilets on this forum and I'm getting a lot of engagement on this thread!

a woman was arrested in cardiff last week

it seems likely that her crime was noticing that there was a man in the women's toilets role playing as a woman

do you think it was correct for her to be arrested OP?

There's a lot of chat about toilets on this forum and I'm getting a lot of engagement on this thread!

mmm lovely

katie dolotowski

if you were his carer would you have sent him into the ladies toilets? yes or no?

Funny how you’ve only just mentioned your transman friend? Presumably they have only been using male facilities since transitioning, or otherwise they may have been challenged if using the female facilities.

So you don't want a change in law? You just want everybody's attitudes to change and for ALL trans women to start using the men's toilets of their own volition because they've listened to you?

No, I want organisations that use the existing law to provide single-sex facilities to have the guts to make it clear that they are separated by sex (not by "gender"). I want it to continue to be socially-unacceptable not to respect women's spaces. I want women who object to men in their spaces not to be pilloried.

It’s up to the men to decide if they’re happy with females in their toilets. Us women shouldn’t be asked to make that decision for them, just as men should not be making the decision for us females.