I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

OP. You asked me what specific concrete things I want to change.

Nothing. And that’s my point. I want single sex spaces for women, adult human females, to stay just that. If a man identifies as a woman, however that looks or feels, with or without surgery, they are still a natal man. If their skeleton is dug up in 100 years they will be scientifically identified as a man, irrespective of their self id, gender norms, certificates etc. when they were alive.

So to avoid being woolly, my answer is to change nothing as regards the existing provision of single sex spaces for natal women, adult human females.

I notice in a later post you’ve moved onto the definition of biological sex. You state it’s not about reproduction, saying some people are infertile. It pretty much is. Males and females have their own gametes, sperm and ovum. No man has managed to change his sperm into ovum.

If a woman can’t reproduce it doesn’t mean she’s not a woman, it’s a medical/biological issue for her. So it’s not a trump card to say ah, you can’t define a woman by saying it’s about having babies as not all women can. They may be infertile but they’re still women. Some women may be unable to have a baby, but no man can ever have a baby,

Go on then what is it.

Every human body is set up with the potential to make large gametes (eggs) or small gametes (sperm). No human can make both. No human makes something else.

All DSD are specific to one sex or the other.

HTH.

All species of mammals are divided into two sex categories. One which produces large non motile gametes, called female, and one which produces small motile gametes, known as male. Individuals fall into one or the other category, regardless of whether their actual reproductive system is fully functional, has ever functioned, has some developmental issues, has been used to produce live offspring.

Any questions?

And before they get on to it… clownfish and seahorses are not relevant. HTH.

Or avocados. Or fungi.

Sadly I’m still not sure of your sex reading that. I specifically asked if you were male or female so as to avoid ambiguity or similar.

99,9% of the population have no problem at all with this.

Just let the females who know they are female and have no wish to be anything else have a space that no male people enter. That's it. That's all. Otherwise they are excluded, they are distressed, they risk harm.

All the people who want to be something other than their sex or who have such huge difficulty figuring out what sex is and who is what sex will have to sort themselves out without harming those female people. It's not hard.

But I thought you didn’t know what a woman is so how do you know?

I'm amused with the idea that we've used three words - female, male and sex, and known for a long,long time that women can get pregnant and men can't. But we have no concept of what those words mean.

OP. I know that you know what sex is. You’ve said you’re a woman and that you’re infertile. If you don’t know what sex is how do you know that you are both of those ?

Were you ever confused about how to define biological sex before the trans ideology debate erupted?

A lot of younger trans people will have started treatment before puberty so the 'tell tale signs' may not be there for everyone.

Most of us have probably shared a toilet space with a trans person at some point and not even noticed.

Yes, it really is obvious. Embryos go down one of two developmental pathways - male or female. Occasionally there’s an issue in that development but that doesn’t negate the developmental pathway they’re on. Nor does whether the person can’t conceive or chooses to not have children.

A lot of younger trans people will have started treatment before puberty so the 'tell tale signs' may not be there for everyone.

What percentage of current trans people transitioned prior to puberty starting (so early than 13/14) do you think?

What treatment? And how many children have started treatment before puberty?

OP @tingalayo women are largely concerned about men in womens spaces rather than sex segregation. This is because men pose a threat to women and women v v rarely pose a risk to men. It's about a physical power, male crime rates, rape, harassment.

Are you asking the OP? I know what a woman is (adult human female) but I didn’t trust that the OP’s answer to me, that seemed to specifically avoid using ‘male’ or ‘female’ was genuine. TBH, i now assume they’re male, having read their reply.

You must be new here OP as the regular posters have defined sex many many times over the years. None of us are confused about the differences between Males and Females.

Sorry it was to the op. Who claimed to be a an infertile woman but can’t define woman.

I do know what sex is, I was asking you lot what you thought. I have been told the important distinction is whether a person has the reproductive potential to produce one or the other type of gamete, regardless of whether they actually do? Why is that the important distinction when deciding who gets to go in which space? You don't even know that about people you see. What about genitals? Testosterone? I thought those were important based on other posts?

Seriously. Just stop now. You know what a female is. You’ve been told repeatedly what a female is.

Most of us have probably shared a toilet space with a trans person at some point and not even noticed.

Or is it just that women haven't commented or challenged trans women when they see them in their toilet spaces, and are even less likely to do so nowadays?

Not being challenged does not equal 'passing'.

I'm a woman and in my specific case it means I am an adult human female who hasn't transitioned and doesn't identify otherwise. For other women the definition might be different.

A lot of younger trans people will have started treatment before puberty so the 'tell tale signs' may not be there for everyone.

Strange, because on Twitter earlier today i saw a TRA saying that of course children are not being given any medical treatment before puberty, and that the idea is completely preposterous and perpetrated by right wing extremists blah blah blah....

So which is it?

so you do know a woman is an adult human female. Awesome. So you know what a female is too. Even better. The rest of the blurb was redundant as no male is a woman. We’ve got there in the end.

What about those people though? What if a trans women never went through male puberty, doesn't have the testosterone levels of average men and doesn't have male genitals, and looks in every way like a woman? In what sense are they a man in any way that is important?