I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

We absolutely do need rigid sex segregation. Women have no place in male spaces. It is about more than physical threat

Why should women be any more concerned about male people claiming to be trans men entering the women's toilets than male people who believe they are women? The result is the same: in both instances you have a male in the female toilets.

Arguing that toilets should be sex-segregated is a principle that until about 5 years ago nobody had an issue with and it worked just fine. There is no legislation around toilets and I doubt they are about to bring in "bathroom bills" in the UK so they will continue to work on the basis of people respecting the fact that males should use the mens and females should use the ladies. You can obfuscate this principle all you like with unlikely gotchas about women mistaking various gender non-conforming people for the opposite sex but the principle still stands. Obviously you will always have people who disrespect the boundaries of women and there is not a lot that can be done about that but that is not a reason to entirely do away with something that largely benefits women.

OP, I'm fairly new here so I kind of get your question. I go in the loo, do what I need to and leave. I've never been policed or needed policing in the loos. But the problem with loos and transgender people is degree. Yes, it's fairly inoffensive in most cases for a man who has or is transitioning to be a woman to use the female loos. But the loos are the thin end of the wedge. And the thick end of the wedge is men in locked female wards in mental hospitals, male sex offenders in women's prisons, male GirlGuiding leaders on residential with young girls and young women, men in domestic violence or rape support groups for traumatised women, men taking Sportswoman of the Year, men doing smear tests and so on and so on. Once one female single-sex space is open to men, they must all be. And for most people, that is not fair, respectful or safe.

Just to clarify, I have little to no interest in men's rights. I'm a woman.

However, I can't see that we're doing our cause any favours by saying that men are unwelcome in our spaces but that women can go in theirs, purely on the basis that the women present minimal physical threat. Firstly, men are entitled to their privacy and dignity too. And secondly, it provides men with ammunition to scream 'foul'. And, believe me, they'll use it 😚

It's not inoffensive for a male, however presenting, to use female toilets. I find it offensive!

Men dont seem too bothered who is in their toilets. Im sure if the said that they want to exclude women, then this conversation wouldnt just be seen as women rights vs trans rights.

Because of their silence, im assuming that they either dont care, or dont want to do the work to get it sorted out. Its not as if men wants and needs are generally ignored.

I know a lot of you are wrong on the "you can always tell" thing, because one of my close friends is a trans man and I didn't know that until I'd known him for a decade. I didn't even believe it at first. Also none of our mutual friends knew until they were told, and were surprised. He is slight of build but lots of men are. He's not going to be the only example in the world. A lot of people here have "you can always tell" as the basis of the argument but that is factually wrong and I know it is.

So I assume your transman friend uses all male spaces and has never had an issue? Awesome. Still no reason to let males in female spaces. Just because you can’t tell the difference between male and female does not mean women have to give up their boundaries.

...but you can always tell a trans woman, and they are the ones women are bothered about.

People don't always know though, I can vouch for that. I used to work for the police and did a stint on the vice squad. Police officers weren't always sure and were sometimes surprised when they discovered their mistake.

You can't always tell.

That's not true either. I have a trans woman colleague and I didn't know she was until I was told.

Isn’t it amazing all these posters today who have such difficulty telling the difference between a male and female. It’s almost like a concerted effort. Who sent out the bat signal?

Would you want him using the female toilets from now on? If everyone had to use toilets according to biological sex then he would have to. Wouldn't it worry a lot of women who saw him, and make them feel unsafe?

Why would I care if a female used female toilets? thats what females should do.

Most women can spot most transwomen in person. It's an evolutionary advantage to be able to spot the sex class that forms a threat.

You wouldn't know he was female though? He'd just look like a man in your toilets?

really? I don’t think so. But if we had strict sex segregation I could be sure that your friend was a female and not bat an eye.
Still no reason for males in female spaces.

You're saying that if we had "strict sex segregation" (still unpoliced of course because that's impossible) you'd be happy with any man-looking person in female spaces because you "could be sure" that they must be female because of course everyone would be following the rules then and no men would come in? I thought people on here were generally quite worried about men using deception to get into women's toilets. They still would!

are you saying TW look like men? Whew boys! You’re right but I’ve never seen it put so baldly. Go you!

to answer the other part of your question, unless you’re faceblind, it is very easy to tell the difference between a male and a female. Your friend probably doesn’t pass half as well as you or she thinks she does.

OP it really wouldn't be a problem. Transmen that actually pass tend to use men's bathrooms because1) nobody notices 2) being female they understand that women are wary of males. Males tend not to pass.

Frankly I don't give a stuff about the occasional 'passing' trans identifying person. If they are passing they probably aren't a problem. TiMs who pass have mastered the art of 'not behaving like a predator, dominating the space and offering tampons about'.
TiW have mastered the art of not upsetting men in the gents.

Those people don't undermine the principle of women having a safe space where they can tell men to fuck off and leave them alone, and be backed up instead of castigated for being insufficiently kind.

Op. Why do you think a trans man is going to use the women’s toilet? If a man identifying as a woman feels he can use the women’s, then surely a trans man will use the men’s?

If it’s a man pretending to be a trans man to gain access to women’s toilets then he’s simply a creep or far worse. It’s just “whataboutery” and not a “gotcha” in terms of the argument for retaining single sex spaces.

@Asdavaluesausage I don't understand your first few sentences. I didn't say TW look like men?
And lol passing literally means that people can assume they're that sex. My friend was assumed by everybody I know including myself to be a biological man unless told otherwise. That's passing. He passes. What exactly would it mean for him "not to pass as well as you think he does"?