I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

Can a trans man with a penis rape a woman? That would make him a man wouldn't it?

@tingalayo genitalia can be changed but not fully into those of the opposite sex.

Those are all biological fact. Whether you can change "biological sex" depends on which combination of those you define sex as, and that's all opinion and language.

Well then I suppose we can only conclude that we have different opinions on this and therefore use different language.

Rearranged or removed /= changed to the opposite sex

I didn't "used to be GC". I meant I thought GC people had genuine concerns and I no longer think you do since seeing your actual discussions. If not rooted in hatred or disgust for trans people then I think it may be like a community thing. Like my uncle spends his whole life online in the climate change denial community and I think it gives him a sense of belonging and purpose.

HELL YES a reasonable reply! High five!

It is a hard no from me I don’t believe that anyone can change sex, cosmetic alterations don’t make someone a man or a woman in my opinion so I shall stick to sex based language and continue to campaign for society to be structured around objective and immutable sex rather than subjective and fluid gender identity.

Can a trans man with a penis rape a woman? That would make him a man wouldn't it?

Whatever they have fashioned to stick on to their vagina isn't a penis, and still doesn't make them a man. It would be sexual assault. Rape would be if they assisted a male penis (a real one) in the act.

In answer to your question: nothing makes a trans man a man. A trans man is a woman identifying as a man.

If a woman was "sexually assaulted" and in this case penetrated by a trans man using his surgically created penis, and said she was raped, would you say oh no it wasn't rape you were sexually assaulted?

“I think it may be like a community thing”

In a sense you’re correct. It’s a community but based upon a shared biological sex. Having said that we’re all individuals, and despite being females we no doubt disagree on as many things as we agree on.

And we’re not bored and some type of flat earthers. It’s possible to have a full life and spend some time on Mumsnet. I find the women here smart, interesting and often incredibly funny.

@tingalayo the legal definition of rape is with a penis. Transmen don't have penises.

OP. You’ve gone from toilets to dissecting the intricacies of whether a female with a surgically created penis can rape a woman.

I think your privilege is showing.

On Mumsnet we try to keep the discussion at a more elevated level, that tends to be more productive for genuine debates.

The fact that the person was born male massively increases the chance of being a sexual predator over someone born female.

Genitals - can change

Kind of. You can have surgery to remove genitals and replace them with an approximation of the genitals of the opposite sex. You can't actually replace a penis and testicles with a vulva and vagina. Not properly functioning ones anyway, and certainly not ones that are indistinguishable from real ones. And most transwomen don't have surgery anyway.

Hormones - can change

Not really. You can take opposite sex hormones but you can't completely change hormone profile to be within the normal range of the opposite sex.

Breasts - can change

Well, a female can have a mastectomy but a male can't acquire fully functioning breasts.

Hair - can change

Taking testosterone can cause male pattern baldness, otherwise what does hair have to do with sex?

Voice - can change to an extent

To some extent, with hormones.

Muscles - can change

Again, with hormones. But hormones cannot reverse the muscle mass and strength gained during male puberty.

I'm a woman and in my specific case it means I am an adult human female who hasn't transitioned and doesn't identify otherwise.

How do you know you're a woman?

Well I would say that most threads here have kindly visitors attempting to educate and enlighten, just as you are currently attempting.

It does seem to be a bit niche to think that gender is a construct and lady brains and gendered souls don't exist. We are a patriachal species at present and genderists and misogynists combined are definately in the majority.

But you surely don't think it is a niche worldview to think that sex is binary.

Even if you disagree thatbit is, you must surely admit most of the world (even the country) is not as enlightened as you are.

And it isnt niche to say that that VAWG is perpertrated overwhelmingly by males. We have very robust data on that.

So I am tempted to say that the echo chambers you have immersed yourself in must be warping your worldview.

Are you from Brighton ?

“Are you from Brighton?” 😂

That is still just completely your own opinion and nothing to do with "biology". It's recognised in law that some people can be legally a woman and still have a penis and therefore a woman can have a penis.

😂😂😂😂😂😂 women don't have penises. If an individual has a natural penis, its a man. Never gonna be a woman.

Toilets are segregated by sex, not gender identity. I don't see how this is confusing to you.

Surely the point is actual males with no intent to be trans, using the excuse of being trans to spend time in ladies toilets, maybe waiting for young girls or women to be alone in there, or peeping over or under the dividers. I have no problem with actual trans, but how is it policed?

And there we have it. Screen-shotted.

We are not really engaging with you @tingalayo for your own sake, but for all the lurkers, who come to the Sex & Gender forum to learn about what's happening to women's legal rights, and who's trying to take them away from us.

You've offered us a really convenient object lesson to those lurkers.They see you.

A legal document or ruling doesn’t come with a magic wand. Even if a man has a GRC his physiology doesn’t change. Biology doesn’t care about what people believe, want or feel.

I can tell you I’m a teenager (I’m not, obviously) demand that you recognise me as such, insist you change things about you to validate me. I’m still not a teenager.

Yes, @Thymely I think that your first point is really the core of the matter.

And on your 2nd point, you may have no problem with transwomen in women's single-SEX spaces but many women do. And women's protected characteristic of sex, or religion, or disability, is on a par with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

The 2010 Equalities Act recognises this, in its provision that the exclusion of men with a GRC - thus making them legally female, although still biologically male - can be a proportionate means to a legitimate end (I'm paraphrasing the 2010 EA there).

People missing ops point (btw Im only up to pg2) but her point is true I've seen pictures of transmen and I would not have a clue they used to be or are biologically female, they look the manliest men ever and her point that men could use this as their way to access female spaces seems to have gone over peoples heads as well (again Im only on pg2 though) I wouldn't put it past ANY man to say he is a 'transman' in order to justify being there