Page 5 | I have a question about toilets

tingalayo · 2022-10-30T10:41:29+00:00

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:41

nilsmousehammer · 30/10/2022 15:29

Round and round and round.... so bored with this time warp conversation.

I find it very transphobic that you suggest that trans people would use female only spaces intentionally to cause confusion and distress to female people. Why would a decent person wish to do this? This isn't a trans thing, it's a person who's an arse to other people thing.

Many TM speak about intentionally not using female only spaces because they know their appearance has changed to the point it may cause confusion and distress or exclude females.

Why do we have to have the bloody endless silly questions and wangling as opposed to TQ+ political lobby supporters able to cope with the idea that some female people need single sex spaces or they are distressed and excluded? Why is there apparently such huge difficulty in managing to care about other humans? What help do you need with this skill?

I didn't suggest they would. I said they would HAVE to, if the law changed to only allow use of facilities based on sex.

OP posts:

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:45

TheABC · 30/10/2022 15:18

OP, would you be happy for a 60-year-old man to follow a teenage girl into the toilets?

According to Eddie Izzard (boy mode/girl mode, no GRC) it's fine and he should not be challenged about it.

I disagree. It's safeguarding 101 to challenge. I'm not sure what you are finding difficult here.

No. But he could still assault her regardless of whether she challenged him or not. I mean you're talking specifically about a predator here. If you meant would I be happy for a trans women to be in the same toilet block as a teenage then yes.

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BreatheAndFocus · 30/10/2022 15:45

Are you male or female, OP? If you’re female, you must be one of the few females incapable of sexing people correctly, going by your trans man friend. They stick out to me - not just because they’re of “slight build” but because they look like female persons with facial hair to be blunt.

Women’s toilets should be for females only. If men want their toilets to be for males only, then they should push for that. If some males and females like mixed sex toilets or feel more comfortable in them, then they can push for that. Ladies Toilets aren’t some random, whacky idea that somebody came up with on a dull afternoon. They exist for reasons of safety, privacy and dignity. They are for female people. They’re not a general haven for people men might be mean to.

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:51

NeverOneBiscuit · 30/10/2022 15:39

OP. You asked what I meant about retaining single sex spaces.

As pp’s have said, I mean retaining them for women. I’ve never seen or heard a discussion where men are worried about women who identify as men using the mens toilet. For good reason. Women (with vanishingly few exceptions) don’t present a physical or sexual threat to men. Statistically men are far more of a threat to women.

And before you say not all men…Of course not all men. Which is why we have safeguarding measures in society, as those who present a threat to others don’t advertise the fact.

Historically single sex spaces exist for women because of the threat of male violence, alongside female specific issues due to our biology, and matters of privacy and dignity.

It’s a depressing thought, but also a hard reality. That reality is reflected in women wishing to retain these spaces, and not to invite in male bodied people. Even those men who have undergone transitional surgery (which is a tiny percentage of trans identified people) have still, in the main, gone through male puberty and male socialisation. They are therefore generally physically stronger, even after taking female hormones. Evidence also suggests that male pattern violence is not reduced to any significant degree in males who have medically transitioned.

My concern isn’t about where men who identify as women go to the toilet. It’s about retaining single sex spaces for women. If the answer for men identifying as women is a third space then they can pursue that. Much like women had to create and fund the women’s refuge movement decades ago.

The answer to the problem for one group of people is not to encroach on the rights of another group.

I don't find anything really objectionable in what you've said there but it's all pretty woolly. You haven't told me any specific concrete thing that you want to change.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 15:51

How is biological sex defined

You know what sex is.

It would be on every news bulletin in the world if a male person became pregnant. Because everyone knows that sex is determined by the reproductive potential of your body.

We all know this, and its tedious that you are pretending that you dont.

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:53

BreatheAndFocus · 30/10/2022 15:45

Are you male or female, OP? If you’re female, you must be one of the few females incapable of sexing people correctly, going by your trans man friend. They stick out to me - not just because they’re of “slight build” but because they look like female persons with facial hair to be blunt.

Women’s toilets should be for females only. If men want their toilets to be for males only, then they should push for that. If some males and females like mixed sex toilets or feel more comfortable in them, then they can push for that. Ladies Toilets aren’t some random, whacky idea that somebody came up with on a dull afternoon. They exist for reasons of safety, privacy and dignity. They are for female people. They’re not a general haven for people men might be mean to.

How would you know? The ones you've clocked, you've clocked. The ones you haven't clocked, you haven't realised you haven't clocked them.

OP posts:

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:54

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 15:51

How is biological sex defined

You know what sex is.

It would be on every news bulletin in the world if a male person became pregnant. Because everyone knows that sex is determined by the reproductive potential of your body.

We all know this, and its tedious that you are pretending that you dont.

"you know what sex is" go on then, define it yourself if it's so obvious. It's not about reproductive potential is it, some people are infertile or born without certain body parts.

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Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/10/2022 15:54

I miss bunbury sooooo much!!!

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/10/2022 15:56

As an infertile woman don’t you fucking dare weaponise my infertility as a gotcha in your pathetic sealioning

my female biology doesn’t work, it’s still female biology. It doesn’t make me a fucking man

jesus!!!!!

LadyWithLapdog · 30/10/2022 15:57

OP, when I discuss it with DH we go through similar logical permutations and then get stuck and give up. What I can say is two examples: once in the ladies’ at a theatre when a man barged in and went straight for the cubicles and the half dozen or so of us waiting didn’t say a peep. It was intimidating, or else that bystander effect when you think someone else will say something. The other was at a nightclub with mixed area of cubicles. I didn’t drink anything for the whole time as I didn’t want to use the loos. I’m at the liberal-woke end of the spectrum and middle aged, but it intimidated me. I don’t have experience of DV, refuges etc, but can imagine other womens experience to be more acute. I don’t know how it will work out.

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 15:57

Me toooooo @Theeyeballsinthesky it’s getting tedious now. Has anyone managed to define woman if it’s not an adult human female yet? Do they all think they’re the first one to come on here and post this nonsense? Why are they all so boringly repetitive?

Signalbox · 30/10/2022 15:59

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:40

Okay, so the law is vague. Someone above said women's toilets should mean nobody with a penis is allowed. What about trans women without a penis and trans men with a penis? How is biological sex defined and how should it be defined in any hypothetical law? Has to have been born with a vagina? Can't reference chromosomes because people don't tend to know theirs.

The law isn’t that vague. Organisations such as Stonewall deliberately misinterpret the law. Sex is already defined in law. Woman = female of any age. You don’t need to know what your chromosomes 99.9% of people know what sex they are. Some people (for whatever reason) pretend that they don’t. In reality it’s not possible to police toilets. You can just inform people that a space is single sex. We generally rely on people’s integrity to stick to that. If they ignore that they can hardly act shocked when women who believed the space was single sex confront them. Eddie Izzard is a great example. He is obviously male but pretends to be surprised when women /girls are not chuffed to see him in the ladies. He knows his presence is upsetting women but he doesn’t give a shit. He hasn’t been arrested and he probably won’t be. But he had trampled on women’s boundaries and in doing so will have encouraged other obvious males to follow suit. He is apparently one of the TW who have been using Women’s toilets for years without incident. I call bullshit.

Signalbox · 30/10/2022 15:59

*adult female of any age

nilsmousehammer · 30/10/2022 16:01

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:41

I didn't suggest they would. I said they would HAVE to, if the law changed to only allow use of facilities based on sex.

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Well lets be honest about this, the reason for Sunak hopefully about to clarify and enforce sex based spaces is to ensure that female people are not excluded or harmed by male people entering them and making them mixed sex.

The issue is male people in female spaces. If male people want to sort out and clarify sex based spaces that would need to be done by males: but let's face it, there isn't the sexual risk and threat to males of females entering their spaces, the rapidly climbing body count of females harmed by males identifying into female only spaces, and male people are less affected and excluded by the entry of females into their spaces than females are by males.

So two things there: male people need to figure out male spaces, but the issue is ensuring female spaces are not a space male people feel entitled to, because female people need them for equality of access and safety.

And here is the great time to make the law state that while a female only space must be provided (and a male only if males want this), mixed sex gender neutral spaces in addition are a sensible and desirable addition.

There doesn't need to be this whole rigid thinking gotcha stuff, it's just about the need to accept female only people are equally entitled to accessible and safe spaces. It's a thing any decent human would be able to understand.

nilsmousehammer · 30/10/2022 16:03

And yes to clarify my posts, when I say female I agree with pps above, the same as under British law, a biological female of any age. No male is a female or can ever become one.

BreatheAndFocus · 30/10/2022 16:05

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 15:53

How would you know? The ones you've clocked, you've clocked. The ones you haven't clocked, you haven't realised you haven't clocked them.

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So you’re male? Perhaps that’s why you can’t perceive sex so well. I can. I spent my younger years very much into a certain GNC community and I very much doubt my eyes would deceive me.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 16:07

I'm begining to feel sorry for trans people, spending all of that time, effort and money to "pass" in a world that doesnt know the difference between men and women.

Why do men get ffs, why is the nhs paying for men to remove their testicle and penis, why are women getting 'top surgery', when we just dont know what sex is?

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 16:10

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/10/2022 15:56

As an infertile woman don’t you fucking dare weaponise my infertility as a gotcha in your pathetic sealioning

my female biology doesn’t work, it’s still female biology. It doesn’t make me a fucking man

jesus!!!!!

I'm an infertile woman.

OP posts:

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 16:11

BreatheAndFocus · 30/10/2022 16:05

So you’re male? Perhaps that’s why you can’t perceive sex so well. I can. I spent my younger years very much into a certain GNC community and I very much doubt my eyes would deceive me.

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I'm a woman

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RoseslnTheHospital · 30/10/2022 16:13

Stop pretending you don't know what sex is, for humans and for all other mammals. It's absurd.

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 16:13

Nobody has defined female for me. Politicians are said to not know what a woman is but the people asking the question don't say what female means do they. Go on, have a go.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 16:13

Then youll know that there's a difference between an infertile man and an infertile woman . You know any potiential treatments are different.

Original poster

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 16:13

RoseslnTheHospital · 30/10/2022 16:13

Stop pretending you don't know what sex is, for humans and for all other mammals. It's absurd.

Go on then what is it.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/10/2022 16:15

Would you not at least raise an eyebrow if a male friend said he was pregnant with a baby, and he was going to give birth shortly?

Asdavaluesausage · 30/10/2022 16:15

tingalayo · 30/10/2022 16:13

Nobody has defined female for me. Politicians are said to not know what a woman is but the people asking the question don't say what female means do they. Go on, have a go.

Oh bore off. It’s boring now. Of course you know what a female is, apparently as you are an infertile woman. They don’t send males for the kind of tests that would reveal a female to be infertile. Go, take a break and come back with so,et him he we haven’t heard 20 billionty times already.