I have a question about toilets

[tingalayo]

If you're concerned that any man can currently enter women's toilets and say "I'm a woman" and nobody is allowed to question it, and you want everyone to use toilets based on their biological sex. Would you not be concerned that then men would then go into women's toilets and claim to be a transman? Wouldn't it just change the thing men have to say to get away with being in women's toilets?

I agree Pink which is why I suggest that women who have taken testosterone, a powerful drug, also keep out of the women’s toilets, from listening to the Transparency podcast I believe many do out of empathy for their sisters. Women who have taken testosterone and had a double mastectomy can pass well as men in my opinion. Men rarely pass as women.

Toilets like sports could easily be women only and then open category or everyone else. As is said elsewhere we are not talking about legislation but consideration of the needs and feelings of others and what is socially acceptable behaviour.

Your argument appears to be “if you won’t accept TW in your space you’ll end up with transmen AND men pretending to be transmen and how will you like that?” I don’t think the argument has gone over anyone’s head that some men will attempt to access spaces set aside for women for nefarious purposes. Currently women have got men who say that they’re women using the ladies. In your hypothetical situation women would have men saying they’re transmen using the ladies.

In both scenarios you’ve essentially got men saying that they are women to use the ladies.

The fact that men do this isn’t a surprise. We know it happens but it isn’t a reason to abandon the principle of single-sex provision altogether. Women want a male free space. It is possible that we won’t get our way because men who don’t respect women’s boundaries won’t allow it to happen. But we can at least continue to push and campaign for what is best for women. And that is single sex provision.

I didn't "used to be GC". I meant I thought GC people had genuine concerns and I no longer think you do

OP what GC concerns did you think were genuine? You’ve already said that you think there is a conflict of rights between women and TW. How do you see this conflict playing out? You are obviously not completely in thrall to trans ideology because admitting a conflict exists is very rare in TRA circles. Even the Scottish Government won’t concede that there is any conflict of rights between trans women and women.

Chromosomes - can't change
What body you had in the past - can't change
What puberty you went through - can't change
Height you attained - can't change
Gametes you produce - cant change except to remove the ability
Genitals - can change
Hormones - can change
Breasts - can change
Hair - can change
Voice - can change to an extent
Muscles - can change

Those are all biological fact. Whether you can change "biological sex" depends on which combination of those you define sex as, and that's all opinion and language.

Changing bodies implies a starting point. That is the biological sex. You can change breasts but woman’s breasts have a specific structure designed to feed, mens are only muscle. You can change hormones to be more like the sex you which to mimic but they don’t actually change you from male to female or vice versa.

If you were buried and dug up 100 years from now forensics could look and your bones and be able to say male or female, DNA would also say male or female. Whatever gender you chose when alive, sex is not changeable .
Women have been trying forever for their sex to be treated as seriously as men. Still not there. Having a man trying to tell women what a women is just reinforces this.

Whether you can change "biological sex" depends on which combination of those you define sex as

No. The definition of sex is which gamete your body is set up to produce and that is not possible to change. Scientific illiteracy is never a good look.

You can change breasts but woman’s breasts have a specific structure designed to feed, mens are only muscle.

That's interesting. And explains the weird shape of the 'breasts' we saw via the full frontal nudity of that transwoman (can't remember his name) on Friday Night Live last week.

I did find myself thinking that if that person paid for fake breasts, they should ask for their money back, because they were nothing like actual women's breasts.

Then you've not understood the point, which isn't anything about the threat posed by trans men, but what is to stop cis men from pretending to be trans men entering women's toilets?

No, you've missed the point @DadJoke as usual. The point is that men don't pass as women. Whatever they're wearing.

So what's your solution then?

All toilets to just be unisex?

Tbh, if everyone was just using the toilet for their own sex, safe in the knowledge that everyone else was doing the same, it wouldn't be an issue anyway would it?

Most men don’t pass as trans men any better than they pass as women. This is silly.

You are asking me to solve a problem which has been wrongly presented as a solution to another problem.

I think trans women should continue to use women's toilets and trans men should continue to use men's toilets, as they have done for decades.

Some trans men do look male at first or even second glance, but you would never doubt them if they said “I’m a trans man.”

this is true of very few actual men.

When you say 'transwomen' here, who exactly are you talking about?

Are you talking about males who have had full SRS and hormones/surgery, or are you talking about any male who identifies as a woman? Or something in between?

I realise I will be waiting a long time for this answer but thought I would put it out there anyway <sigh>

Transwomen now is not the same as transsexuals a few years ago.

Do you think TW who may or not be taking Hormones and still have a penis should be accessing female single sex spaces.

Do you think it's correct that we should accept the thousands of recently 'transitioned' middle aged people who are now 'women' but still have a penis.

Do you think we should accept the thousand on cross dressers in our single sex spaces ? I saw one on Twitter who said he used the female toilets when he was Mandy but the gents when he was Ian!

Do you think Eddie Izzard should use the ladies toilet?

Toilets and other sex segregated facilities are segregated by sex, not gender identity. This isn't our problem to solve.

Then you've not understood the point, which isn't anything about the threat posed by trans men, but what is to stop cis men from pretending to be trans men entering women's toilets?

Honestly TRAs are always arguing that men would never go to the effort of pretending to be something they are not to get access to women and then they come up with this argument, without irony.

Plus it’s a shit argument. “You can either have TW or you can have men pretending to be TM”. Both of those sets of people are MALE people in female spaces. It is you who are misunderstanding the point which is that no males should feel entitled to enter women’s spaces whatever they identify as.

And why would a man identifying as a TM be any more or less of a risk to women than a man identifying as a woman? It’s all the same thing isn’t it? People identifying as something they are not.

Happy for transmen to be in women's toilets. They are biological women and they are safer away from biological men when in a state of undress or otherwise vulnerable. As you are in toilets.

You can always tell. Even if it takes a second glance. No one passes. Just being polite to say they do.

I always try to think about this from DDs point of view. I would be much happier with her sharing a space with a TM than a TW, because it's the male sex that increases the risk to her safety.

Yes, I think it's correct to continue following the law as it currently stands.

I don't believe, based on the evidence, that people pretending to be transgender is a threat to cisgender women. So, when someone presents the exclusion of trans women from women's toilets as a solution to this so-called issue, it's reasonable to point out that this supposed solution doesn't solve the problem it pupports to solve.

It doesn't matter what you believe DadJoke as you have no skin in this game. By allowing Males into single sex Female spaces, you exclude some Females from those spaces. It's not just about safety. It's about privacy and dignity too. Why don't you give a shit about them?

When the law was introduced it did not envisage that bad faith actors would manipulate it in such a way and that it would be positively encouraged by charities and institutions.

The law should not need to change, but instead of Stonewall et al saying everyone male and his grandpa can be Trans and can invade womens spaces, they should be sending out the message that actual woman need to be respected and that means that the vast majority of TW should not be using Female single sex spaces.

Stonewall and TRAs have caused this horrible situation.

Live4weekend: yes, I totally agree with your point about “bad faith actors”.

The very small number of transsexual people in society (mainly men) have, in recent years, conducted their private struggle with dysphoria in a discreet, private and low key manner. Just as you would expect of any individual living with such a difficult condition.

No public declarations of being stunning and brave, and demanding validation from others. No flip flopping between male and female names and pronouns. With genuine dysphoria you are repelled by your natal sex, you don’t identify with it when it suits you to keep your job, or to be accepted by a certain group. It’s not costume you remove, it’s a deeply troubling psychological condition.

So yes, no need for a change in the law. The law is clear and works well; female only spaces for the female sex. And to those saying what about men sneaking into spaces. or pretending to be trans men etc. This is even more reason for robust safeguarding. Just because I know there are burglars about I don’t throw my hands up and say sod it, let’s just leave the front door open.

I believe decent biological men do not want to enter/share spaces with biological women. They understand and respect why women don’t want men there. If a man is prepared to trample all over the reasoning behind single sex spaces, I think it’s a legitimate question to ask why.

I don't care what a man believes @DadJoke. Your opinion is of no relevance. Sit down.

Dadjoke: there’s no such thing as a cisgender woman. The only word required is woman. Woman = adult human female. That’s the sex. Gender isn’t sex.

TRAs are very vocal about the importance of words to describe trans people. They’re important to women as well. I don’t need or want the definition of a woman to be changed to validate the self identification of a man.