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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids being investigated by the Charity Commission - thread 2

1000 replies

ResisterRex · 06/10/2022 05:55

The first thread, towards the end of which there was a discussion about having a second thread but it wasn't added:

Mermaids being investigated by the charity commission
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4644323-mermaids-being-investigated-by-the-charity-commissionn_

There's been a new development so maybe a second thread would be useful:

Lottery pauses trans charity cash during investigation

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c959a286-44e4-11ed-8885-043c27446b97?shareToken=6d482edb1a386656502f33453da5c230

OP posts:
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117
ArabellaScott · 15/10/2022 15:34

How do we react appropriately to abuse? We can retraumatise kids with our reaction.

In an example of a flasher? It's hard. Our priority is to be safe and keep children safe, an exhibitionist man can be dangerous, as Sarah Everard's tragic case showed. At the time escalating the situation may not be safe. So escaping the situation should be the priority. I suppose we have most control over how we talk about it afterwards (and allow our children to talk about it). To acknowledge it, how it feels, not sweep it aside for fear of discomfort. And also not to invest it with too much power.

Yeah, none of it's easy.

nilsmousehammer · 15/10/2022 16:36

Tatchell sadly is never advocating for what he thinks he is advocating for. He is the example of not only repeatedly wanting to be heard framing his abuse as definitely something not positive and not harmful - but also to look for company in advocating in effect for this to be something ok to happen to other nine year old boys. He is unaware that his own lack of appropriate boundaries is a direct result of the harm done to his boundaries as a child.

He is the example of the harm carried by adults who were sexually abused as children. I am very sorry he was not better protected as a child, but he is a sad example of failure, not an example of child safeguarding being unnecessary and something that should be removed. To better convenience the desires and wishes of an adult to use and manipulate a child for their own sexual gratification.

His feeling that as a child he was not particularly harmed by it seems to me in common with the TW view that a lesbian should 'learn to cope' with unwanted, undesired, unsatisfying sex that is nothing more than a duty of their providing their body for the use of a TW. Who will enjoy it, who does want it, and who does not want to be buggered with any reciprocality or responsibility, but sees the other party as a kind of therapist/animated sex toy.

It's a repeating theme. It's a disturbing one. It again lacks any awareness of boundaries or social relationships. It attempts to justify and involve people in wangled consent to being used.

Considering I feel used when someone male comes into a female single sex space where I'm changing, because they want my presence and my state of undress to meet their need to feel affirmed and do not want to have to bother with any reciprocal need meeting or equality of consideration.... where exactly do the lines fall in all this? There is no appropriate justified 'use' of non consenting, unpaid others to provide a wanted service. Society does not delineate into givers and takers. This is not a socially competent view of the world.

ArabellaScott · 15/10/2022 16:41

Yes, nils. One point - if I've understood correctly Tatchell talks about Jarman's abuse in that clip, no mention of his own experience.

nilsmousehammer · 15/10/2022 16:42
  • Sorry, for TW view above please read TQ+ political view - this is not the view of all TW and is the view of TQ+ political lobby members who are not themselves TQ+.

Apologies, it's hard to navigate the language hoops and still keep track of the point.

nilsmousehammer · 15/10/2022 16:46

ArabellaScott · 15/10/2022 16:41

Yes, nils. One point - if I've understood correctly Tatchell talks about Jarman's abuse in that clip, no mention of his own experience.

Thanks Arabella, my mistake. I have heard Tatchell speak on this subject several times, the age is always mentioned as nine, it is always a boy. I do find that interesting if he is not talking about personal experience.

ArabellaScott · 15/10/2022 16:52

'it's hard to navigate the language hoops and still keep track of the point.'

Yes, that's probably not an accident!

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2022 16:56

MangyInseam · 15/10/2022 14:09

I've wondered a bit about this too, because my impression was always that her family is not actually very LGB friendly. And so it seems a bit odd that they are so willing to associate with that movement, or the fetish movement.

There are a few possible explanations for that but one is those people are making a point of presenting themselves to her in a way she feels comfortable with.

I have come to think that where a lot of people have gone wrong, on the being idiots side of things, is that they have really lost any rational underpinning for the idea that there is such a thing as unhealthy sexual expression. Or perversion, as people said in the old days.

The narrative they accept is that everything is ok, so long as it is consensual and done "safely." There is nothing potentially negative about your sex life revolving around being a furry, for example. Not for the person involved, psychologically, the only reason it might become negative if it's repressed. All sexual impulse is natural, and what is natural is healthy.

People who accept that - and it's pretty much what they get taught in school - have no real basis to understand sexual impulses or development that could be personally or socially destructive.

Arguably many view the t as homophobic conversion therapy though. In this respect if you tag yourself to the thing that you dislike in order to try and convert in what way does it fail to make sense?

You effectively undermine the entire concept of same sex attraction from within.

Its perfect 5th column stuff.

MangyInseam · 16/10/2022 01:48

RedToothBrush · 15/10/2022 16:56

Arguably many view the t as homophobic conversion therapy though. In this respect if you tag yourself to the thing that you dislike in order to try and convert in what way does it fail to make sense?

You effectively undermine the entire concept of same sex attraction from within.

Its perfect 5th column stuff.

Yes, the claim made is that Green was looking to cure what her husband thought was their son's effeminacy, which was seen as likely homosexuality.

But I'm not convinced that the current attachment she has to - I guess we could call it the queer movement - is meant to somehow undermine it. Or even just use it as cover.

To me it seems like she is happy to be allied to these causes, she feels self-righteous about it.

SimpleName83 · 16/10/2022 02:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FannyCann · 16/10/2022 09:25

BlueBrush · 15/10/2022 12:32

Amidst all the inappropriately sexualised stuff highlighted on this thread - the "sex positive" messages that shouldn't come anywhere near children - I keep thinking about the "vanilla" and "neo-prude" merchandise produced by We Can't Consent To This. (Campaign against the rough sex defence.) Like this:

wecantconsenttothis.teemill.com/product/neo-prude-slogan-unisex-tee-white-black-or-red-wine/

wecantconsenttothis.teemill.com/product/vanilla-unisex-fit-slogan-tee-white/

I think some reframing is in order!

Have I missed something? Is there a problem with those slogans?
I bought a range of WeCantConsent T shirts for both my daughters and some of their friends at uni, my intention being they would start conversations and hopefully spread the message (and warn any guys around them that they had boundaries). They proudly wear Neo-prude and Vanilla T-shirts.

Are those bad messages? We can't Consent have done great work.

nilsmousehammer · 16/10/2022 09:40

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Which in fact when you dig down into it would most likely be to do with the male parent of that child feeling threatened in their masculinity.

BlueBrush · 16/10/2022 09:44

FannyCann · 16/10/2022 09:25

Have I missed something? Is there a problem with those slogans?
I bought a range of WeCantConsent T shirts for both my daughters and some of their friends at uni, my intention being they would start conversations and hopefully spread the message (and warn any guys around them that they had boundaries). They proudly wear Neo-prude and Vanilla T-shirts.

Are those bad messages? We can't Consent have done great work.

Oh no, not saying they're a problem @FannyCann ! I think they're great.

I wasnt very clear. My point was that the reaction to people objecting to involving children in "sex positive" stuff is that we're a bunch of pearl-clutchy, old-fashioned prudes - and that this is a very intentional framing on the part of some people to normalise sexual activity involving children, see the paedophile manifesto. So I like the idea of claiming "vanilla" in a positive way, or at least the start of a conversation, as you say.

FannyCann · 16/10/2022 09:51

Phew! Thanks @BlueBrush
DD's boyfriend wears one too!

Mermaids being investigated by the Charity Commission - thread 2
TheBiologyStupid · 16/10/2022 10:58

The Guardian finally covers the Mermaids scandal! www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/oct/16/the-real-life-mermaids-turning-fantasy-into-reality-on-britains-shores

Oops - stupid me! As you were...

RedToothBrush · 16/10/2022 11:02

TheBiologyStupid · 16/10/2022 10:58

The Guardian finally covers the Mermaids scandal! www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/oct/16/the-real-life-mermaids-turning-fantasy-into-reality-on-britains-shores

Oops - stupid me! As you were...

We only got to page 40 on MN...

Shakenotslurred · 16/10/2022 11:04

@RedToothBrush to be fair, that headline is also accurate about the mermaids we are talking about….

TheBiologyStupid · 16/10/2022 11:07

Only if you insert "painful medicalised" before " reality".

WarriorN · 16/10/2022 12:01

New thread to continue discussions

Mermaids being investigated by the Charity Commission - thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4656455-mermaids-being-investigated-by-the-charity-commission-thread-3

WarriorN · 16/10/2022 12:03

For info; Julian Vigo has interviewed Michael Biggs on her Savage Minds substack.

V interesting history into the trans movement, especially in universities, and their own backgrounds into it.

Both came from the "ally" sides originally and have backgrounds in social sciences / gender studies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/10/2022 12:07

savageminds.substack.com/p/michael-biggs?utm_source=profile&utm_medium=reader2#details

Thanks for that, I'll try to listen to it over the next couple of days.

WarriorN · 16/10/2022 12:14

He's has some perspectives on feminism that I feel are a tad short sighted and probably more around the impact of popular "diluted feminism" - but I'm not a feminist scholar!

TheBiologyStupid · 16/10/2022 13:49

Thanks for that, I'll try to listen to it over the next couple of days.

Ditto.

ResisterRex · 16/10/2022 16:05

LGB Alliance analysis will "warn that “young people are being radicalised into online subcultures” and that the online space is the “canary in the coalmine” for wider culture."

In the Telegraph. Accessible here

twitter.com/safeschools_uk/status/1581613917830189061?s=46&t=d4gaMMTAEieoxDOsT8iLfQ

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 16/10/2022 17:21

Good work from LGBA.

ItsLateHumpty · 16/10/2022 23:20

WarriorN · 16/10/2022 12:01

New thread to continue discussions

Mermaids being investigated by the Charity Commission - thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4656455-mermaids-being-investigated-by-the-charity-commission-thread-3

Quoting to close this thread and repost the link to thread 3

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