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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend is now trans and i'm confused

202 replies

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 08:40

Hello! I have NC'd for this but a regular poster. This is my first time posting on FWR though.

I've followed the dialogue on Trans rights closely since noticing the arrival of gender neutral loos. And a particularly traumatic experience in such a loo at a popular bar that required me to walk past a working men's urinal to get to cubicles. There's also been a few times i've had to touch up my lipstick and brush my hair in shared mirrors with some strange guy next to me. Nothing untoward has ever happened, but it has felt uncomfortable.

Recently a close friend of DP has come out as a trans woman and it has really made me question what it means. For context - she is 34 and has cross dressed publicly since uni. But also maintained a big beard, did beer cruises with the lads and has a long term gf, so it just seemed like a straight man who enjoyed cross dressing. There was never any gender confusion expressed and she always seemed happy with the status quo.

She started at a new company just before the pandemic with a very active LGBTQIA community and befriended the founder who wasn't trans (gay) but extremely passionate about the cause, to the point of seeming fanatical. I mean the first time I met him, within 5 mins he launched into tirade over the issue and it came up pretty much every time we saw him even without asking. Friend then went very quiet over the lockdowns and we didn't hear from her much until she popped up on social media with a long post about how she had changed her name by deed poll to start her new identity as a woman. It went on to say how she'd always wondered about her identity but was never sure, but the lockdowns gave her time to think and she realised she identifies as a woman. Regarding transition - she ranted on long wait time for NHS HRT (she is well off and could afford private but isn't considering it for some reason) and that she'd done extensive laser treatments. She's still with her gf (who identifies as straight as far as I know).

Anyway, we've seen her since and initially outside a curiosity as to what promoted the sudden change I didn't pay much heed. However, the first time she came with me to the toilets was a huge shock. She has also gotten very vocal in the community and it's led to some awkward conversations between us. Because to her, she and I are the same, but to me outside of wearing female clothing (which she did even as a man) and having a female name, she's biologically still a woman. I asked her how she knew she was meant to be a woman if she's never been one. And she said she just felt wrong being a man. And this is where I get confused. Growing up as a child in a foreign country I always felt like I didn't fit in with home culture, and identified more with the American culture I saw on TV. But I didn't think I was American. Nor could I have just become one by changing my name. Or DP loves rap music but couldn't just identify as black without uproar.

There's also the issue that she isn't considering transitioning. So it feels like the only thing she really knows and feels about being a woman are the clothing and a higher pitch of speech - which she could have done, and did do, even as a man without any judgement. Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine as a BAME, immigrant woman and honestly I don't know what to think.

It's at a point where I find it stressful meeting her as I don't understand what is going on. It's the first time I've felt like being a woman is now just a label any man can adopt with no entry criteria and that's made my own identity feel de-valued. I'm also worried how far reaching this will be as I see gender neutral changing space and toilets pop up everywhere including schools. I do think her very vocal friend may have convinced her she was trans, as she was isolated at the time and spent most of her time with him. It's a very sudden and drastic turn and I do know she's ASD and will fixate obsessively on perfecting something once she discovers it. As an example she discovered darts, and would spend 4-5 hours every day, and all weekend to get good at it at the same place. Read up extensively etc. This carried on for 6 years until they moved. It's been like this with board games etc too. So I have wondered how much of this is because she's now discovered the trans community. All speculation though and not my place to analyse tbh. Just adding context as to why it's made me question whether it should be this easy to become a woman, as the ramifications for everyone are serious.

Any advice on how to deal with this, so I can spend time with her and be supportive or at least better manage my own confused feelings on the matter?

OP posts:
oct · 05/10/2022 08:48

Could you speak to her?

OctopusBreath · 05/10/2022 08:55

What do you feel the need to actually do? You could be supportive without understanding the ins and outs surely... We're constantly empathising and supporting friends that have experiences and life choices we don't have personal experience of, aren't we?

deeperthanallroses · 05/10/2022 09:03

OctopusBreath · 05/10/2022 08:55

What do you feel the need to actually do? You could be supportive without understanding the ins and outs surely... We're constantly empathising and supporting friends that have experiences and life choices we don't have personal experience of, aren't we?

it feels like the op is saying that being supportive is kind of denying her own reality as a bame immigrant woman- instead she has to agree this transwomens challenges are more than hers. A bit like if your friend earns twice as much as you but wants to go on and on about how skint she is.
i don’t mean to put words into your mouth op and I’m sure you’ll say if you think I’ve got it wrong, but it sounds pretty self centred and unaware of other people ie you. I think I’d just distance myself to be honest while feeling sorry for the girlfriend, who is presumably also suddenly incredibly privileged in comparison to her partners new victim status.

AguaFiestaFeminista · 05/10/2022 09:03

It's a head fuck, that's why. Basically a cross-dressing (three letters) male is making you jump through mental hoops, which is exhausting in itself. He's crossing boundaries all over the place, and expecting you to smile and be comfortable about it.

You don't have to be. You aren't being transphobic. You just need to back off for a while and see how you feel. You'll either get used to it and find a way to be around him or you'll realise for your own sanity that you need to stay away.

ganvough · 05/10/2022 09:03

OctopusBreath · 05/10/2022 08:55

What do you feel the need to actually do? You could be supportive without understanding the ins and outs surely... We're constantly empathising and supporting friends that have experiences and life choices we don't have personal experience of, aren't we?

I think it's more how vocal and involved she is in wanting gender neutral spaces, turning every conversation into the struggles of Trans people yet not listening to or understanding the POV I've tried to put forward as to why some women may feel uncomfortable having biological men in their space. But also from a practical perspective we are going on a ski holiday next year that her DP can't join so she's asked to share a room with the other single girl going. Not the single guy. The girl has felt obliged to say yes but has confided in me she isn't comfortable because she is still a man with a penis who's attracted to women. My trans friend obv isn't comfortable sharing with the other man so it feels wrong that this girl has to instead.

Leakingroofagain · 05/10/2022 09:08

My concern would be that this new job isn't keeping the person busy enough so they've had far too much time to naval gaze.

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 05/10/2022 09:13

You have no obligation to be friends with this person. The self-entitlement and narcissism they have displayed would make me unlikely to be interested in friendship with them. We all have only a set amount of energy and time for friendships so seek out friends who are enjoyable to be with and less self-centred and let this one get on with their own life without their decisions and demands needing to trouble you.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 09:14

This reply has been deleted

We've deleted this post for troll hunting

deeperthanallroses · 05/10/2022 09:15

Now you’ve added the story about the ski trip, I’d be done with her. That girl
should not have to share a room with her. Can you change accom at all? Change plans?

AtrociousCircumstance · 05/10/2022 09:19

Yeah it’s make believe. This person now wants everyone around them to prop up their fantasy. Like a toddler stomping their foot, but a fully grown biological male.

They are trans, they deserve acceptance for who they are but they are not a biological woman and therefore there is a massive difference which needs to be addressed and honoured.

Don’t be bullied by a male bodied person into denying your truth. They are essentially pressurising you coercively to gaslight yourself.

rookiemere · 05/10/2022 09:19

@ganvough that's awful about the poor friend on the ski holiday. Can she share with you and your DP shares with the friend ?

That would definitely be my hill to die on, no way would I share with a man, even one who wears a dress.

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 09:19

deeperthanallroses · 05/10/2022 09:03

it feels like the op is saying that being supportive is kind of denying her own reality as a bame immigrant woman- instead she has to agree this transwomens challenges are more than hers. A bit like if your friend earns twice as much as you but wants to go on and on about how skint she is.
i don’t mean to put words into your mouth op and I’m sure you’ll say if you think I’ve got it wrong, but it sounds pretty self centred and unaware of other people ie you. I think I’d just distance myself to be honest while feeling sorry for the girlfriend, who is presumably also suddenly incredibly privileged in comparison to her partners new victim status.

Yes, this. I was discussing with her how in my new job there didn't seem to be any BAME leader in senior positions (but they are a majority in the jr positions - that kind on industry) and I was concerned there might be some bias in promotion. She turned it completely into a convo about how bias against Trans was a real problem and asked me to join a panel debate she was doing on the topic. She didn't even acknowledge my concern or want to discuss how we could help ALL minority communities.

OP posts:
mirax · 05/10/2022 09:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AtrociousCircumstance · 05/10/2022 09:21

@ganvough Please support your friend and to help make sure she doesn’t have to share with someone she feels so uncomfortable with.

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:21

So on this planned holiday do we notice any particular characteristic about the person who comes bottom of the list for taking account of their wants and need for feeling safe and privacy and dignity?

What is different about them and the other people whose wants are being prioritised over their need to feel safe?

Anyone?

If the sex of adults wasn't screamingly obvious no matter how they dress, the fact that the biological male always seems to get their way and trample over the boundaries of natal women would be a sure fire giveaway.

At what point do women get to have some rights? Like the right to feel safe in their accommodation on a holiday they are presumably paying for? Or do they simply not have any rights ever if a male decides their wants are more important?

Personally I don't have time for people who are using me as an unconsenting validation tool. This person sounds like more effort than they are worth. I'd recommend finding some new friends where the friendship is more mutually respectful.

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:28

Onjali Rauf is good on the overstepping of particularly BAME women's boundaries.

One of her latest tweets is about a white biological male in Germany who self-IDs as a Muslim woman who tried to gain access to a domestic violence refuge for women. It's the logical conclusion of self ID of course.

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 09:28

rookiemere · 05/10/2022 09:19

@ganvough that's awful about the poor friend on the ski holiday. Can she share with you and your DP shares with the friend ?

That would definitely be my hill to die on, no way would I share with a man, even one who wears a dress.

It's one of those chalets so limited number of rooms. The girl is the only other single female, everyone is in couples and there's another single male. Trans friend's brother booked the holiday like he always does and it's mostly the same group. We all assumed Trans friend and single guy would share a room because they have in the past. The girl can't cancel as it would mean increased costs for everyone else, and would make her unease at the situation obvious - prob cause a huge rift in the group too as brother is very protective of trans friend. The ideal situation would be if brother offered to share with his sister and then single girl could share with brother's wife. But brother hasn't offered, DP hinted at it and was shot down.

It is the fact we don't get a say in any of it and just need to blindly accept it or be called out for not understanding/being supportive. DP agrees with me that it's getting selfish and isn't comfortable with her attitude himself but they've been friends since school so cooling things/splitting the group is a big deal. That's why I was trying to understand how reasonable our feelings are.

OP posts:
BaronessBomburst · 05/10/2022 09:31

I notice that you refer to your DP's friend as "she". How did you refer to them before, when you regarded them as a cross-dressing man?
What's changed between them previously being someone with a penis wearing a dress and now being someone with penis wearing a dress? Why are YOU referring to them as a woman despite knowing that they're not?

AtrociousCircumstance · 05/10/2022 09:31

The unreasonable person is the male bodied individual insisting on their entitlement to share with a woman regardless of how uncomfortable she feels.

This is rape culture - it is anti consent.

This is a hill to die on, the friendship group will be affected at some point so let it change now before a woman is put in a horrendous situation.

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:34

AtrociousCircumstance · 05/10/2022 09:31

The unreasonable person is the male bodied individual insisting on their entitlement to share with a woman regardless of how uncomfortable she feels.

This is rape culture - it is anti consent.

This is a hill to die on, the friendship group will be affected at some point so let it change now before a woman is put in a horrendous situation.

Spot on. I'd not be keen on sharing with a biological male in any circumstance but a male who's shown an absolute disregard for my discomfort but bulldozed my boundaries anyway?

That behaviour suggests he has no regard for women's needs or boundaries and I'd be MUCH less keen to share a room because how far does this lack of consideration of a woman's boundaries go? If this male gets drunk and fancies a shag?

What happens if your friend is raped? It happens, it's all too common, this male has already shown he gives zero fucks about how she feels.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/10/2022 09:34

Brings to mind Eddie Izard.

RoseslnTheHospital · 05/10/2022 09:34

It's the bullying friend who is causing splits within the group. The single girl is being bullied into a situation she isn't comfortable with on a holiday that she is paying for. That's plain wrong, and my support would be for her and not the ones throwing their weight around. You might have to accept that there will be a rift in the group if no one is willing to stand up to the demanding behaviour of the others.

ChiefWiggumsBoy · 05/10/2022 09:35

Genuinely? I couldn't continue a friendship with a person who is basically an overt racist misogynist. Because a male person who insists to an immigrant woman who is not white that their troubles are worse is a racist misogynist. And a male that decides they now have access to women's spaces and just rides roughshod over everyone is not someone I'd like to associate with.

I am a coward and would probably just ghost them in all honesty. I'm sure that says more about me than them, but I would do the same to any friend who exposed themselves as a racist misogynist, regardless of trans status.

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:36

I'd suggest to single friend she pull out of the holiday and she can claim it's cost of living related.

Why should she pay for a holiday she's being used as an unconsenting validation tool and won't enjoy it?

Lovelyricepudding · 05/10/2022 09:37

OctopusBreath · 05/10/2022 08:55

What do you feel the need to actually do? You could be supportive without understanding the ins and outs surely... We're constantly empathising and supporting friends that have experiences and life choices we don't have personal experience of, aren't we?

Why should OP be supportive? I do not support behaviours that are harmful to others, that ignore personal boundaries and right to privacy, that demand I support someones fantasy. If they are a friend I will discuss this with them and if they persisted I would distance myself from them.

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