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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend is now trans and i'm confused

202 replies

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 08:40

Hello! I have NC'd for this but a regular poster. This is my first time posting on FWR though.

I've followed the dialogue on Trans rights closely since noticing the arrival of gender neutral loos. And a particularly traumatic experience in such a loo at a popular bar that required me to walk past a working men's urinal to get to cubicles. There's also been a few times i've had to touch up my lipstick and brush my hair in shared mirrors with some strange guy next to me. Nothing untoward has ever happened, but it has felt uncomfortable.

Recently a close friend of DP has come out as a trans woman and it has really made me question what it means. For context - she is 34 and has cross dressed publicly since uni. But also maintained a big beard, did beer cruises with the lads and has a long term gf, so it just seemed like a straight man who enjoyed cross dressing. There was never any gender confusion expressed and she always seemed happy with the status quo.

She started at a new company just before the pandemic with a very active LGBTQIA community and befriended the founder who wasn't trans (gay) but extremely passionate about the cause, to the point of seeming fanatical. I mean the first time I met him, within 5 mins he launched into tirade over the issue and it came up pretty much every time we saw him even without asking. Friend then went very quiet over the lockdowns and we didn't hear from her much until she popped up on social media with a long post about how she had changed her name by deed poll to start her new identity as a woman. It went on to say how she'd always wondered about her identity but was never sure, but the lockdowns gave her time to think and she realised she identifies as a woman. Regarding transition - she ranted on long wait time for NHS HRT (she is well off and could afford private but isn't considering it for some reason) and that she'd done extensive laser treatments. She's still with her gf (who identifies as straight as far as I know).

Anyway, we've seen her since and initially outside a curiosity as to what promoted the sudden change I didn't pay much heed. However, the first time she came with me to the toilets was a huge shock. She has also gotten very vocal in the community and it's led to some awkward conversations between us. Because to her, she and I are the same, but to me outside of wearing female clothing (which she did even as a man) and having a female name, she's biologically still a woman. I asked her how she knew she was meant to be a woman if she's never been one. And she said she just felt wrong being a man. And this is where I get confused. Growing up as a child in a foreign country I always felt like I didn't fit in with home culture, and identified more with the American culture I saw on TV. But I didn't think I was American. Nor could I have just become one by changing my name. Or DP loves rap music but couldn't just identify as black without uproar.

There's also the issue that she isn't considering transitioning. So it feels like the only thing she really knows and feels about being a woman are the clothing and a higher pitch of speech - which she could have done, and did do, even as a man without any judgement. Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine as a BAME, immigrant woman and honestly I don't know what to think.

It's at a point where I find it stressful meeting her as I don't understand what is going on. It's the first time I've felt like being a woman is now just a label any man can adopt with no entry criteria and that's made my own identity feel de-valued. I'm also worried how far reaching this will be as I see gender neutral changing space and toilets pop up everywhere including schools. I do think her very vocal friend may have convinced her she was trans, as she was isolated at the time and spent most of her time with him. It's a very sudden and drastic turn and I do know she's ASD and will fixate obsessively on perfecting something once she discovers it. As an example she discovered darts, and would spend 4-5 hours every day, and all weekend to get good at it at the same place. Read up extensively etc. This carried on for 6 years until they moved. It's been like this with board games etc too. So I have wondered how much of this is because she's now discovered the trans community. All speculation though and not my place to analyse tbh. Just adding context as to why it's made me question whether it should be this easy to become a woman, as the ramifications for everyone are serious.

Any advice on how to deal with this, so I can spend time with her and be supportive or at least better manage my own confused feelings on the matter?

OP posts:
VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 15:18

Hepwo · 05/10/2022 14:51

It's actually three entitled men, all three of them are manipulating this woman, knowing she doesn't want it and still going ahead.

This is grim.

If this was my DP (it wouldn't be) then he would no longer be my DP and neither would I be friends with any of the men, why would anyone want to be friends or partnered to men who are so fucking misogynistic?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 15:23

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 15:18

FaazoHuyzeoSix

I don't know that this will work. What happens when they call her bluff and put her in to share with the other male?

It is often best to not to indulge in dodging the truth in this way.

I would think saying, 'no. I don't want to share with someone who has a penis' is irrefutable and not denying this person's identity while maintaining her boundaries.

I think we can all see that this situation is going to implode in any case. She probably has to resolve in her own mind that she will have to cancel because by the sounds of it, this male has all the power in this group.

Why on earth should she pussyfoot, when the truth is she doesn't want to share with a man?

More importantly I am sure, according to what this entitled man claims to believe, talking about the penis would be transphobic as it suggests that the existence of a penis is relevant to someone's womanhood. This man should be validated 100% because he is a woman, and it is transphoic to suggest that a penis impacts his ability to be a literal, biological woman, exactly like any other woman.

ColeensBoot · 05/10/2022 15:23

You are NOT being unreasonable.
That is one strange state of affairs.

And this person is demanding to share a room with you?
Say no. No thanks. That doesn't work for me. No. No thanks. And continue.

Back away and listen to your instincts.

Hepwo · 05/10/2022 15:24

I completely agree VestofAbsurdity. He's picked a side and it's the one where he expects the two women to take their place in the pecking order below the desires of these two brothers.

HeadAboveHeadBelow · 05/10/2022 16:09

I feel for you OP this is hard with all the accompanying dynamics etc. I'd talk to the friend and suggest she says she doesn't wish to share with the opposite sex, though she respects the trans friends choices and identity, and ask to pay slightly more for a room on her own, and you can strongly back her up. The second best choice is for her to say that she's a private person, and really would rather have a room on her own if she's to come, leave out mention of the trans friend (it'll be obvious anyway)

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 16:10

This thread demonstrates the unbelievable extent of societal grooming and undermining of women's boundaries that's happened in the last 5? 8? years. Women having to dance around in fear of social exclusion and worse in order to say that no to a man insisting on sharing a bedroom with a women he's not in a relationship with .
Quite unbelievable.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 16:55

This thread demonstrates the unbelievable extent of societal grooming and undermining of women's boundaries that's happened in the last 5? 8? years.

This is true.

If it were me, I would be straight to the point. But I am conscious that I can be rather blunt.

LovinglifeAF · 05/10/2022 18:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 19:10

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 15:18

If this was my DP (it wouldn't be) then he would no longer be my DP and neither would I be friends with any of the men, why would anyone want to be friends or partnered to men who are so fucking misogynistic?

My DP shares my views and supports female friend to do what she asks of hi, without forcing his opinion on her. It's not as black and white as cutting off a misogynist because it's a 20 year friendship where trans friend and brother never exhibited behaviour like this before. That's why this development is such a shock and we are trying to wrap our heads around it. It's particularly difficult when you live in a part of the country that our opinions are in the minority. As an example our local school has started some gender neutral space and most of the mums supported it (at least publicly). Hence me turning to MN to get perspective,

However, female friend is an adult woman who explicitly asked us to not say anything to anyone. She is also still considering going on the trip as she weighs up the loss of her entire social circle vs standing up for herself. And I can have my own thoughts but as a feminist I don't want to make decisions for other women or speak on their behalf. Female friend is closest to the siblings from the entire group so they are more likely to listen to her feelings. I have shared opinions on this thread with her now, to let her know others would feel the same way and she's not a bad person for feeling uncomfortable. Hopefully that will help her decision and give her confidence to refuse sharing. So thank you for the support.

DP and I know we need to start distancing ourselves from the siblings. It's sad because 18 months ago, they were great friends. Now we don't know this person at all - like invasion of the body snatchers.

OP posts:
VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 19:35

However, female friend is an adult woman who explicitly asked us to not say anything to anyone. She is also still considering going on the trip as she weighs up the loss of her entire social circle vs standing up for herself.

One of the saddest aspects of this - female friend has to put aside her feelings, be kind and submissive in order not to lose her friends/social circle. Some friends/social circle that is.

It's not as black and white as cutting off a misogynist because it's a 20 year friendship where trans friend and brother never exhibited behaviour like this before.

Or maybe you just didn't see it? I bet if you could look back objectively it would be there.

DP and I know we need to start distancing ourselves from the siblings. It's sad because 18 months ago, they were great friends. Now we don't know this person at all - like invasion of the body snatchers.

Sad indeed, this damage this ideology causes.

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 19:37

She is also still considering going on the trip as she weighs up the loss of her entire social circle vs standing up for herself

But she's lost her social circle already, because of the entitled desires of a male who puts his desires over her feelings. He sees her as a service human. Not equal. It can't survive this unless it become abusive long term.

Why would she do that to herself? Does she really accept these men can decide her boundaries for her like this? What next?

And all the 'I'm feminist so I don't want to make her decision for her' bollocks. It's not a free decision if it's coercion and you know it is OP. She doesn't want to share with this male. She'd only be doing it not to lose the friendship (which is lost anyway).

Personally, given this male has shown how little he thinks of her and that the friendship is entirely one way, I'd rather not put myself in a position where I'm going to get repeatedly flashed (at least) over multiple days.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 20:04

Encourage your friend to sign up and make her own thread and we can all coach her until she’s practiced and confident in the ways of Mumsnet?

’No, that doesn’t work for me’
’No’
’No thank you’

Helleofabore will make a great. Coach-against-the-Patriarchy!

Postsynapticdensity · 05/10/2022 20:19

"I am a feminist so I dont want to make a decision for her " is indeed bollocks, like swordfish says.
It's clear why this man is throwing his weight around, it's because he can. Your poor single friend is going to go along with this because she'd rather put up with it that lose her entire social life. You and your partner are going to let that happen because you dont want to rock the boat either. No one wants to be the bad guy here.

Your male friend you call "she" doesnt want to stay in the single room or share with the male friend he normally shares with because he needs your female friend to validate he is 'one of the girls now". Like you explained he seems very committed to the cause and to prove a point.

Is he going to be predatory or sexually inappropriate with her? unlikely, but he is going to make that trip miserable for your friend. You know why? because he gets euphoric when that validation comes. (maybe even sexually aroused). He's going to engineer situations in that room that make him feel good at the expense of your friend, situations where he crosses boundaries because he is a girl now and girls share. Your friend will have to put with that and everyone will try hard to not bat an eyelid. You will all have an excuse for not calling it out, including your single friend. She'll tell herself she's being silly. you'll tell yourselves that after that you will distance yourselves.

Looks like none of you wants to be the person who raises this issue and thats probably because you all think that no one else will back you up against the siblings. find out what everyone thinks and try to be united. No need to be confrontational, just firm. Your single friend needs a way out and making her feel guilty if she cancels is just awful. I think that by omission you are all complicit. If you make it a confrontation you will lose because trans friend will see a battle for this as an existential issue and the group
will lose.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 20:33

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 20:04

Encourage your friend to sign up and make her own thread and we can all coach her until she’s practiced and confident in the ways of Mumsnet?

’No, that doesn’t work for me’
’No’
’No thank you’

Helleofabore will make a great. Coach-against-the-Patriarchy!

ahh... because of my habit of incivility? I have been trying real hard because I got so many deletions and a few strikes due to my 'uncivil' comments. I even tried to explain it is a cultural thing which did not work at all.

Hence why half the time my posts tend to be less direct than others.... 'the MN effect'!

But yes. I can be polite but blunt when it comes to saying 'no!'

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 21:08

Not everyone has the same needs and values and being a feminist is accepting that other women may value certain things I don't. It would be easy for me to tell this girl to dump her childhood friends - but it won't impact me. It does impact her and her future. There's absolutely no risk this trans friend is going to assault her btw. They've known each other since they were 10... It's more she has always related to him as a man, so this is a huge change. She is not a vulnerable victim either - she is aware of her dilemma and being measured in her approach. She's 36, independent and intelligent - but the trans debate is not one anyone is prepared for until you're in it. It's even harder when it's close friends and family and not a social media battle.

The best thing I can do is show her the way she feels is not wrong and leave her to make her own decisions.She loves and cares for trans friend a lot more than DP and I do, because they have a greater shared history. His transitioning is upsetting to her, it's upsetting to the brother, upsetting to their parents. Upsetting to everyone really but the radical work colleague. Their lives will never be the same again and I have a little empathy that they are all stumbling their way through it. I'm not about to explode it even more because I have problems with the situation. DP and I can remove ourselves from it, but who am I (a relative new comer to this group) to tell someone how to live their life - I would find it incredibly condescending if anyone did that to me.

OP posts:
TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 21:11

All this genderstuff really does fuck up families and friendship groups.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 21:12

There's absolutely no risk this trans friend is going to assault her btw. They've known each other since they were 10..

Eerrr! You don’t know this. You have no idea what this person can do. They have already declared that they don’t respect boundaries.

You also don’t know what her own background is, what she does not discuss.

It is very possible boundaries will be crossed in other ways in that room too. Such as glimpses through doors left open, that sort of thing.

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:17

Okay I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anyone but a trans person doesn't owe an explanation to anyone. She may have been stuffing these feelings away and emphasising her previous masculinity to hide her truth. Also the process for surgical transition is incredibly difficult, long, complex and painful. She doesn't need to go through all that to meet her truth. She's being her authentic self and it should be celebrated.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 21:19

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:17

Okay I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anyone but a trans person doesn't owe an explanation to anyone. She may have been stuffing these feelings away and emphasising her previous masculinity to hide her truth. Also the process for surgical transition is incredibly difficult, long, complex and painful. She doesn't need to go through all that to meet her truth. She's being her authentic self and it should be celebrated.

Not if ‘celebration’ means taking away a woman’s right go privacy, dignity and safety, no.

no thank you.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 21:20

She's being her authentic self and it should be celebrated.

Yeah?

So should the single female damp down her discomfort or be honest and admit she doesn’t want to share a bedroom with this male on holiday?

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:25

@Helleofabore and @TheClogLady I haven't said she should have to do something she is uncomfortable with. I'm saying that everyone has the right to their own existence and we don't need to be angry with people for living their truth. If OP isn't comfortable then that is absolutely her prerogative. What I'm saying is we shouldn't be so bloody quick to bash people.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 21:27

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:25

@Helleofabore and @TheClogLady I haven't said she should have to do something she is uncomfortable with. I'm saying that everyone has the right to their own existence and we don't need to be angry with people for living their truth. If OP isn't comfortable then that is absolutely her prerogative. What I'm saying is we shouldn't be so bloody quick to bash people.

OP is trying to support a friend. Did you actually read all her posts?

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:30

@TheClogLady when I said bashing people I was referring to being jumped on in the two quoted replies I got lol. People have opinions and that's fine, but when people have differing views being aired it shouldn't immediately be contentious.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 21:31

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:25

@Helleofabore and @TheClogLady I haven't said she should have to do something she is uncomfortable with. I'm saying that everyone has the right to their own existence and we don't need to be angry with people for living their truth. If OP isn't comfortable then that is absolutely her prerogative. What I'm saying is we shouldn't be so bloody quick to bash people.

OP has already stated that male has made her feel uncomfortable in different ways.

Have you not read the thread? This male is not concerned about making women uncomfortable and had shown this with actions already.

What is there to celebrate?

The truth is this person is male. Not female.

How about they live their truth without making their friends and other females uncomfortable?

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 21:32

What about celebrating women who set their own boundaries and then maintain them?