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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend is now trans and i'm confused

202 replies

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 08:40

Hello! I have NC'd for this but a regular poster. This is my first time posting on FWR though.

I've followed the dialogue on Trans rights closely since noticing the arrival of gender neutral loos. And a particularly traumatic experience in such a loo at a popular bar that required me to walk past a working men's urinal to get to cubicles. There's also been a few times i've had to touch up my lipstick and brush my hair in shared mirrors with some strange guy next to me. Nothing untoward has ever happened, but it has felt uncomfortable.

Recently a close friend of DP has come out as a trans woman and it has really made me question what it means. For context - she is 34 and has cross dressed publicly since uni. But also maintained a big beard, did beer cruises with the lads and has a long term gf, so it just seemed like a straight man who enjoyed cross dressing. There was never any gender confusion expressed and she always seemed happy with the status quo.

She started at a new company just before the pandemic with a very active LGBTQIA community and befriended the founder who wasn't trans (gay) but extremely passionate about the cause, to the point of seeming fanatical. I mean the first time I met him, within 5 mins he launched into tirade over the issue and it came up pretty much every time we saw him even without asking. Friend then went very quiet over the lockdowns and we didn't hear from her much until she popped up on social media with a long post about how she had changed her name by deed poll to start her new identity as a woman. It went on to say how she'd always wondered about her identity but was never sure, but the lockdowns gave her time to think and she realised she identifies as a woman. Regarding transition - she ranted on long wait time for NHS HRT (she is well off and could afford private but isn't considering it for some reason) and that she'd done extensive laser treatments. She's still with her gf (who identifies as straight as far as I know).

Anyway, we've seen her since and initially outside a curiosity as to what promoted the sudden change I didn't pay much heed. However, the first time she came with me to the toilets was a huge shock. She has also gotten very vocal in the community and it's led to some awkward conversations between us. Because to her, she and I are the same, but to me outside of wearing female clothing (which she did even as a man) and having a female name, she's biologically still a woman. I asked her how she knew she was meant to be a woman if she's never been one. And she said she just felt wrong being a man. And this is where I get confused. Growing up as a child in a foreign country I always felt like I didn't fit in with home culture, and identified more with the American culture I saw on TV. But I didn't think I was American. Nor could I have just become one by changing my name. Or DP loves rap music but couldn't just identify as black without uproar.

There's also the issue that she isn't considering transitioning. So it feels like the only thing she really knows and feels about being a woman are the clothing and a higher pitch of speech - which she could have done, and did do, even as a man without any judgement. Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine as a BAME, immigrant woman and honestly I don't know what to think.

It's at a point where I find it stressful meeting her as I don't understand what is going on. It's the first time I've felt like being a woman is now just a label any man can adopt with no entry criteria and that's made my own identity feel de-valued. I'm also worried how far reaching this will be as I see gender neutral changing space and toilets pop up everywhere including schools. I do think her very vocal friend may have convinced her she was trans, as she was isolated at the time and spent most of her time with him. It's a very sudden and drastic turn and I do know she's ASD and will fixate obsessively on perfecting something once she discovers it. As an example she discovered darts, and would spend 4-5 hours every day, and all weekend to get good at it at the same place. Read up extensively etc. This carried on for 6 years until they moved. It's been like this with board games etc too. So I have wondered how much of this is because she's now discovered the trans community. All speculation though and not my place to analyse tbh. Just adding context as to why it's made me question whether it should be this easy to become a woman, as the ramifications for everyone are serious.

Any advice on how to deal with this, so I can spend time with her and be supportive or at least better manage my own confused feelings on the matter?

OP posts:
wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 13:05

rookiemere · 05/10/2022 12:37

Also I wonder how friends GF feels about him actively choosing to share a room with a single female, rather than his male friend he shared with previously?

I'm really not sure what is going on here as I assumed they'd break up as gf is straight woman and her once straight bf is now a lesbian woman. But she's still with him and openly supportive. I guess he still has sex like a straight man so it's not miles apart from him being a straight cross dressing man. That's why it's even more of a head fuck.

OP posts:
mirax · 05/10/2022 13:06

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 12:39

Well, she's just another woman isn't she? Her thoughts, feelings, needs, wants and wishes are irrelevantHmm it's all about the male.

Exactly.

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 13:08

I wouldn't blame OP for deciding that she never wants to see TW and brother and anyone else on the men's rights sides of this again, even if they were to turn around later today and apologise for even suggesting the TW shared with the single woman in the first place.

Yes, the fact they even thought that this arrangement would be acceptable, let alone voiced it and expected it to be accepted by the single woman and everyone else tells you ALL you need to know about these males and their priorities. Patriarchy and misogyny alive and thriving, marvellous.

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 13:12

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 12:28

Thanks for responses. It's helped me make sense of some of my own feelings on the matter.

Regarding single female friend, I agree it's unfair and wrong to force her into this situation. However, she has confided this to me privately and doesn't want the others to know how I feel (other than DP). I'm the relatively new outsider to this group of friends so I guess enough removed to be neutral. It's why DP suggested the siblings sharing because single female friend didn't want trans friend to feel like she's been ostracised by having to sleep alone (with DP sharing with single male friend and me sharing with her). The logic makes no sense to me as surely anyone wants their own room!! But all this pussyfooting is because of how emotionally charged the whole issue is and how no one wants to upset the siblings. DP has tried and they don't listen.

Female friend has not pulled out yet from trip so we are weighing up what we do.

DP has said he feels this friendship is completely different to what it used to be. And it's like the personality has changed so much regardless of their identity, to something more self absorbed. I use 'she' as I wanted to be respectful of her journey. I never thought she'd lose empathy for others in the process. And it's confusing, sad and difficult - without resources available to support the friends and family other than saying you need to put their feelings first always.

Hopefully, the actions of your male friend, the reactions to it on this thread and those of you and your DP have opened your eyes to the realities of this ideology, those who embrace it and the impact it has on others.

Baldieheid · 05/10/2022 13:18

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 13:05

I'm really not sure what is going on here as I assumed they'd break up as gf is straight woman and her once straight bf is now a lesbian woman. But she's still with him and openly supportive. I guess he still has sex like a straight man so it's not miles apart from him being a straight cross dressing man. That's why it's even more of a head fuck.

He IS a straight man. He's a cross dressing straight man with male genitalia and his girlfriend is a straight female with female genitalia. There is literally nothing beyond heterosexuality here, except a fantasy and either coercion or collusion. Nothing. Not. One. Thing.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 13:19

Trouble is OP, while you and your DH "fret "about this, the single female friend is taking the pressure, the responsibility and the fear on her shoulders. And remember, that fear includes the fear of sexual assault which, because you're all fretting away silently, she knows she'll have to suck up - because if nobody prioritises her safety now, they sure as hell won't if she's sexually harassed by this man. She'll be alone, isolated and abused. You've mentioned feeling lonely about this - just imagine how she must be feeling.

If you're moral people then you must speak out. By email, phone call or whatever. Keeping you all safe is everyone's business - it shouldn't be up to her as an isolated individual to state that she doesn't want to share a room with this man. There are 2 of you.

"Of course she can't be expected to share a room with transwoman. That's unacceptable. Happy to resolve this discreetly but she's not there to make transwoman feel validated. Here are several options - which shall we go for?"

Be brisk and uncompromising. And if there are tantrums - then deal with it as you would a toddler.

risefromyourgrave · 05/10/2022 13:22

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 13:05

I'm really not sure what is going on here as I assumed they'd break up as gf is straight woman and her once straight bf is now a lesbian woman. But she's still with him and openly supportive. I guess he still has sex like a straight man so it's not miles apart from him being a straight cross dressing man. That's why it's even more of a head fuck.

Maybe she’s scared that if she breaks up with him now then she’ll be branded transphobic by all of her friends who are bending over backwards to accommodate his womanly feelings.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 13:22

I'm really not sure what is going on here as I assumed they'd break up as gf is straight woman and her once straight bf is now a lesbian woman.

This male really isn't a lesbian woman, OP.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 13:36

viques · 05/10/2022 13:05

Well I agree with you, you can’t opt out of male privilege completely, just as you can’t opt out of the physical changes that puberty , male or female, makes on a human body.

I think however that you can, if you want to , understand how male privilege affects others and try to mitigate its impact rather than either ignoring its existence or riding roughshod over other peoples rights , safety and preferences.

Sadly for whatever reasons the current crop of transwomen seem in the large part unwilling to recognise how their life choices ( and I use that term deliberately because for many I believe it it is a choice) impacts on womens protected rights ,safety and well-being.

"try to mitigate its impact rather than either ignoring its existence or riding roughshod over other peoples rights , safety and preferences."

For example by not lying and saying your a woman when you're not you mean?

I agree 100%

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/10/2022 13:42

Regarding single female friend, I agree it's unfair and wrong to force her into this situation. However, she has confided this to me privately and doesn't want the others to know how I feel (other than DP)

Well everybody is playing games and pussyfooting around. You don't have to. They don't sound like people you'll enjoy spending time with any more, if you ever did. So don't.

You don't need to challenge these people. They can believe wtf they like and you are not going to change their minds. Either they agree with the trranswoman, or they will go along with itto please her brother, or they will go along with it because she's aggressive or manipulative or selfish, or because she's autistic. But you don't have to join them.

Whether you go this time or not, it will probably be the end of skiing trips for this group. I just wouldn't go. As they say - when the fun stops, stop.

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 14:10

Maybe she’s scared that if she breaks up with him now then she’ll be branded transphobic by all of her friends who are bending over backwards to accommodate his womanly feelings.

Nail meet head @risefromyourgrave. The Op and all the other other friends pandering to this male and they wonder why the girlfriend and the other single female are reluctant to rock the boat, they know exactly whose side the friends are on and who they will support, who will be branded as a bigot, transphobic, shamed, abused and frozen out.

PragmaticWench · 05/10/2022 14:29

No woman should be coerced to get changed or sleep in a room with a male, especially not a heterosexual, intact male. It's not about being attacked, it's about that woman feeling vulnerable and highly uncomfortable!

Hopefully you and your DH can stand up against that coercion OP.

Eeksteek · 05/10/2022 14:31

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 10:19

@Eeksteek How does an adult give up the privilege of having been bought up male in a male body?

I did say as much as possible. Of course you can’t give up past privilege. It’s the main problem with sport. There’s no way to mitigate the effects of a male puberty. (I do not think trans people should participate in professional sports. There are prices for all of us.)

DameHelena · 05/10/2022 14:37

I think Eeksteek's point is perfectly clear and don't see why it's causing so much consternation. She says explicitly that some of the things it means are 'not expecting access to places where male bodies are not welcome' and 'not using their male body advantages of size and strength in women’s sports'.

I do agree that 'acknowledging that their experience of being male is not the same as a woman’s experience of being female' is harder to actually do or see being done.
But the practical things she cites are straightforward.

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 05/10/2022 14:38

Talking about your friend's "safety" isn't the right path because that is tantamount to calling the transwoman a dangerous sexual predator. Presumably that's not likely. Not all mindblowingly selfish narcisists are also dangerous sexual predators. Focus on dignity, privacy and consent which are less accusatory.

She could say "I am not comfortable sharing a bedroom with another woman's partner" without impugning the Drama Queen's identity.

She could also say "I signed up for the holiday on the assumption that my room allocation would be..." (whatever she assumed - alone? sharing with another named person who now isn't?) "... and much as I love (Drama Queen name) I'm afraid that doesn't stretch to sharing a bedroom, sorry. It's not appropriate to railroad me into a sleeping situation that I don't actively consent to, and that doesn't work for me."

IcakethereforeIam · 05/10/2022 14:39

It seems to me that men in situations like this can afford to 'be kind' because it costs then not one single thing. In fact, quite the opposite, they get all the kudos by supporting their friend but it's the women (old fashioned, cunty type) who actually bear the burden.

OP, put yourself in your single, friend's shoes. How would you feel if it was your dignity and safety. Or how would you feel if, over the holiday, something bad did happen to the girl. It would not be your fault or responsibility but if I were in your place I'd feel appalled. But I'm old fashioned enough to feel appalled that the idea is even being entertained.

The bloke might have my support to be his authentic self. I would draw a line when that infringes other people's boundaries, dignity and safety.

Hepwo · 05/10/2022 14:42

But brother hasn't offered, DP hinted at it and was shot down.

It is the fact we don't get a say in any of it and just need to blindly accept it or be called out for not understanding/being supportive. DP agrees with me that it's getting selfish and isn't comfortable with her attitude himself but they've been friends since school so cooling things/splitting the group is a big deal.

This is appalling. Three men all abusing this one woman on behalf of each other and expecting a second woman to participate in the abuse.

What a nasty group of men. They think "ah we are friends so we look after each other, shitting on women is secondary to looking after your mates".

I wouldn't want to be on holiday in a chalet with three men with this attitude to women.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 14:48

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 05/10/2022 14:38

Talking about your friend's "safety" isn't the right path because that is tantamount to calling the transwoman a dangerous sexual predator. Presumably that's not likely. Not all mindblowingly selfish narcisists are also dangerous sexual predators. Focus on dignity, privacy and consent which are less accusatory.

She could say "I am not comfortable sharing a bedroom with another woman's partner" without impugning the Drama Queen's identity.

She could also say "I signed up for the holiday on the assumption that my room allocation would be..." (whatever she assumed - alone? sharing with another named person who now isn't?) "... and much as I love (Drama Queen name) I'm afraid that doesn't stretch to sharing a bedroom, sorry. It's not appropriate to railroad me into a sleeping situation that I don't actively consent to, and that doesn't work for me."

Are you saying that women need to be carful when expressing their legitimat concerns in case a man wilfully misinterprets them?

I would agree with "Talking about your friend's "safety" isn't the right path" though... the right path is to say "I am not going on holiday with a this entitled man who makes me feel uncomfortable"

Hepwo · 05/10/2022 14:51

It's actually three entitled men, all three of them are manipulating this woman, knowing she doesn't want it and still going ahead.

This is grim.

rookiemere · 05/10/2022 14:54

FaazoHuyzeoSix · 05/10/2022 14:38

Talking about your friend's "safety" isn't the right path because that is tantamount to calling the transwoman a dangerous sexual predator. Presumably that's not likely. Not all mindblowingly selfish narcisists are also dangerous sexual predators. Focus on dignity, privacy and consent which are less accusatory.

She could say "I am not comfortable sharing a bedroom with another woman's partner" without impugning the Drama Queen's identity.

She could also say "I signed up for the holiday on the assumption that my room allocation would be..." (whatever she assumed - alone? sharing with another named person who now isn't?) "... and much as I love (Drama Queen name) I'm afraid that doesn't stretch to sharing a bedroom, sorry. It's not appropriate to railroad me into a sleeping situation that I don't actively consent to, and that doesn't work for me."

Yes this is excellent!

Female friend says she has been reflecting on it and then <insert sentences used above> artfully avoids the whole trans discussion and simultaneously emphasises the point that he is a heterosexual male no matter what he wears.
Plus who can argue with her feeling uncomfortable- it's just as valid as feeling female Wink.

Get your friend to use this OP, the only fly in the ointment is if his GF stops slurping the cool aid and dumps this twinkly female feeling a**hat.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 15:01

While I agree that FaazoHuyzeoSix's suggestion is clever, how depressing that women have to tip toe around the obvious problem - that an entitled male demands access to a woman when she sleeps, undresses etc for his own validation and that nobody dare say no.
As in the Mumsnet motto "No is a complete sentence"

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 15:12

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 15:01

While I agree that FaazoHuyzeoSix's suggestion is clever, how depressing that women have to tip toe around the obvious problem - that an entitled male demands access to a woman when she sleeps, undresses etc for his own validation and that nobody dare say no.
As in the Mumsnet motto "No is a complete sentence"

Exactly.

Fuck this being kind to the poor male and his hurty feelings and need for validation. None of the males in this scenario, including the OP's DP, give a toss about the feelings of the single woman in all this but she has to tiptoe around making clever statements? NO. If they are truly friends, which it is becoming apparent they are not as their friendship is conditional, then the single female should be able to truthfully speak without fear or any backlash. As I said earlier what a despicable bunch of so called friends.

Hepwo · 05/10/2022 15:14

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2022 15:01

While I agree that FaazoHuyzeoSix's suggestion is clever, how depressing that women have to tip toe around the obvious problem - that an entitled male demands access to a woman when she sleeps, undresses etc for his own validation and that nobody dare say no.
As in the Mumsnet motto "No is a complete sentence"

It's not that they dare not say no. All three of them value their male friendship far higher than this woman's autonomy and dignity. She is to do as she is told by them.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 05/10/2022 15:16

Another possibility, slightly more verging on confrontational is that the single woman is being used for validation and doesn’t feel comfortable with it.

I assume that the difficult friend has never felt that the guy he usually shares with was a threat to him before, why wouldn’t they share now. Only because the single woman is the unwilling sacrificial victim to the gender identity validation gods.

She might argue that she is uncomfortable sharing with a penis person if the girlfriend does dump him before the trip and uncomfortable being used for validation. There is no other reason why he wants to share with her, well there are some other reasons but they are a lot worse.

What a horrible situation!

Can you and your DP pull out and leave an extra room? Another less confrontational option, make some unrelated excuses.

Definitely distance yourselves from this person and his brother.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 15:18

FaazoHuyzeoSix

I don't know that this will work. What happens when they call her bluff and put her in to share with the other male?

It is often best to not to indulge in dodging the truth in this way.

I would think saying, 'no. I don't want to share with someone who has a penis' is irrefutable and not denying this person's identity while maintaining her boundaries.

I think we can all see that this situation is going to implode in any case. She probably has to resolve in her own mind that she will have to cancel because by the sounds of it, this male has all the power in this group.

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