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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend is now trans and i'm confused

202 replies

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 08:40

Hello! I have NC'd for this but a regular poster. This is my first time posting on FWR though.

I've followed the dialogue on Trans rights closely since noticing the arrival of gender neutral loos. And a particularly traumatic experience in such a loo at a popular bar that required me to walk past a working men's urinal to get to cubicles. There's also been a few times i've had to touch up my lipstick and brush my hair in shared mirrors with some strange guy next to me. Nothing untoward has ever happened, but it has felt uncomfortable.

Recently a close friend of DP has come out as a trans woman and it has really made me question what it means. For context - she is 34 and has cross dressed publicly since uni. But also maintained a big beard, did beer cruises with the lads and has a long term gf, so it just seemed like a straight man who enjoyed cross dressing. There was never any gender confusion expressed and she always seemed happy with the status quo.

She started at a new company just before the pandemic with a very active LGBTQIA community and befriended the founder who wasn't trans (gay) but extremely passionate about the cause, to the point of seeming fanatical. I mean the first time I met him, within 5 mins he launched into tirade over the issue and it came up pretty much every time we saw him even without asking. Friend then went very quiet over the lockdowns and we didn't hear from her much until she popped up on social media with a long post about how she had changed her name by deed poll to start her new identity as a woman. It went on to say how she'd always wondered about her identity but was never sure, but the lockdowns gave her time to think and she realised she identifies as a woman. Regarding transition - she ranted on long wait time for NHS HRT (she is well off and could afford private but isn't considering it for some reason) and that she'd done extensive laser treatments. She's still with her gf (who identifies as straight as far as I know).

Anyway, we've seen her since and initially outside a curiosity as to what promoted the sudden change I didn't pay much heed. However, the first time she came with me to the toilets was a huge shock. She has also gotten very vocal in the community and it's led to some awkward conversations between us. Because to her, she and I are the same, but to me outside of wearing female clothing (which she did even as a man) and having a female name, she's biologically still a woman. I asked her how she knew she was meant to be a woman if she's never been one. And she said she just felt wrong being a man. And this is where I get confused. Growing up as a child in a foreign country I always felt like I didn't fit in with home culture, and identified more with the American culture I saw on TV. But I didn't think I was American. Nor could I have just become one by changing my name. Or DP loves rap music but couldn't just identify as black without uproar.

There's also the issue that she isn't considering transitioning. So it feels like the only thing she really knows and feels about being a woman are the clothing and a higher pitch of speech - which she could have done, and did do, even as a man without any judgement. Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine as a BAME, immigrant woman and honestly I don't know what to think.

It's at a point where I find it stressful meeting her as I don't understand what is going on. It's the first time I've felt like being a woman is now just a label any man can adopt with no entry criteria and that's made my own identity feel de-valued. I'm also worried how far reaching this will be as I see gender neutral changing space and toilets pop up everywhere including schools. I do think her very vocal friend may have convinced her she was trans, as she was isolated at the time and spent most of her time with him. It's a very sudden and drastic turn and I do know she's ASD and will fixate obsessively on perfecting something once she discovers it. As an example she discovered darts, and would spend 4-5 hours every day, and all weekend to get good at it at the same place. Read up extensively etc. This carried on for 6 years until they moved. It's been like this with board games etc too. So I have wondered how much of this is because she's now discovered the trans community. All speculation though and not my place to analyse tbh. Just adding context as to why it's made me question whether it should be this easy to become a woman, as the ramifications for everyone are serious.

Any advice on how to deal with this, so I can spend time with her and be supportive or at least better manage my own confused feelings on the matter?

OP posts:
wizzywascal · 06/10/2022 10:26

AtrociousCircumstance · 06/10/2022 09:59

OP what are you planning to do to support your friend re the holiday?

I don’t think there is any way to ‘save’ the friendship group from changes, whatever you do now, so please do what you feel to be right.

Please support your friend, even if that means supporting her right to pull out of the holiday meaning you have to pay more.

What price the rights of a woman not to feel violated and uncomfortable?

She's going to talk to trans friend alone and have an open conversation. When the announcement was made, she didn't ask many questions as wanted to be supportive but ski trip brought it to a head. She's likely to have more influence than me or DP tbh as they're closer. I wanted this thread to help cement my belief and show her that we aren't bad people for not being on board with it, and this has done that. As has the FWR board in general.

As for me and DP, if friend can't get through to her (not just room sharing but being open to other views and understand other perspectives etc), we'll have to distance ourselves. Possibly not go on ski trip irrespective of whether friend does or not. Trans friend is getting very involved in trans communities, posts a lot, attends debates and protests, is good friends with people who use words like TERF etc - and since it goes against what DP and I believe, it's hard to maintain friendship. I can accept different politics and opinions but to me this is someone devaluing MY sex and identity. I can't cope with anymore of the rants tbh.

I do feel for the family though. Brothers used to go regularly to watch football on their season ticket and craft beer festivals - trans friend enjoyed it and would even organise it. All that's stopped now (no reason given) but she only drinks g&t now and doesn't follow football at all. Even changed her 'likes' on her social media pages to remove these references. In the space of a year. I imagine she thinks it's not feminine enough, like women don't watch football or drink beer. It's like she wants to be a stereotype of a woman rather than a woman. That's why I will never understand what exactly is meant by feeling like a woman.

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 06/10/2022 10:37

You should reach out to your friend's partner. If you're feeling uncomfortable, imagine how she is feeling. Tell her about trans widows.

wizzywascal · 06/10/2022 10:40

And I also think that people rightly cause an uproar when white people do 'black face' even just during acting. Why do we care more about people maintaining their race or colour but not their sex? I can't imagine a POC suddenly being allowed to say they're white because they don't feel they fit in or feel right with other POC. Somehow race and skin colour fluidity isn't a thing.

OP posts:
wizzywascal · 06/10/2022 10:41

TinselAngel · 06/10/2022 10:37

You should reach out to your friend's partner. If you're feeling uncomfortable, imagine how she is feeling. Tell her about trans widows.

I don't know her well at all, neither does DP as she doesn't socialise as much with us. Travels a lot.

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 06/10/2022 10:44

I think this friendship group is over, OP, because it has just changed. Life happens , people find partners outside the group, people have children so their perspective changes, some people do very well in their careers and other people get stuck or just abandon work. People find alternative interests and activities. That is just life.
The catalyst here is that one of your group has changed a great deal, and in ways which make them less entertaining and interesting company. I suspect that if some of them do go on this holiday it will not be particularly enjoyable, because one member banging on endlessly about their personal obsession is not entertaining or relaxing.

I do feel, however, that you should maintain contact with the single woman whose rights have been so disregarded in the probably insatiable quest for validation. However competent and self assured she may seem, being placed in the position of being expected to share a room with a penis owner against her own choice is pretty horrid, especially when the pressure is being exerted by people whom you thought were your friends, and who you might expect to be careful of your feelings and your safety.

Cherryblossoms85 · 06/10/2022 10:45

There's nothing to deal with. Just ignore it as much as you can, and maybe point out that saying she knows what it's like being a woman is like saying you know what it's like being someone else entirely (it's not possible). And yes, you are right, it is all complete and utter self-indulgent patriarchal bullshit.

TinselAngel · 06/10/2022 10:53

I don't know her well at all, neither does DP as she doesn't socialise as much with us. Travels a lot.
I'm sure she'd still appreciate somebody checking if she's OK.

MsRosley · 06/10/2022 11:02

"And this is where I get confused."
"I don't understand what is going on"
"I don't know what to think"

This is because gender ideology is intrinsically incoherent and confusing, OP. It's not you, it's them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2022 11:10

I do feel for the family though. Brothers used to go regularly to watch football on their season ticket and craft beer festivals - trans friend enjoyed it and would even organise it. All that's stopped now (no reason given) but she only drinks g&t now and doesn't follow football at all. Even changed her 'likes' on her social media pages to remove these references. In the space of a year. I imagine she thinks it's not feminine enough, like women don't watch football or drink beer. It's like she wants to be a stereotype of a woman rather than a woman. That's why I will never understand what exactly is meant by feeling like a woman.

A million eye rolls. So if I drink beer and watch football I'm a man?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/10/2022 11:11

I'm rather suspicious of the idea that 'authentic selves' should always be celebrated. Not when they damage other people.

This.

TheClogLady · 06/10/2022 11:13

TinselAngel · 06/10/2022 10:53

I don't know her well at all, neither does DP as she doesn't socialise as much with us. Travels a lot.
I'm sure she'd still appreciate somebody checking if she's OK.

Agree.

You can keep it light, just send a text or DM saying something like:

‘Lots of changes happening in your household of late! Just making contact to let you know you aren’t invisible and that if X’s transition ever feels overwhelming, I’d be happy to come liberate you for coffee/wine/park walks/whatever you fancy’

and make sure she has your phone number because voice calls aren’t screenshot-able 😉

Thank you for paying attention to both the female friend and the girlfriend’s situations. It’s so easy for the needs/desires of women to become completely subjugated under a cloud of glitter and rainbows and if everyone around them seems to be fully on board the transtrain, it can be very isolating.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/10/2022 11:25

Sympathies OP - a depressing story. Your friend is being courageous in having a conversation about this. Hopefully when she's being trashed if she does refuse to share a room, you and your DH will be there to see that the friendship group treat her fairly.

swordfishspoons · 06/10/2022 11:55

Thank you for paying attention to both the female friend and the girlfriend’s situations. It’s so easy for the needs/desires of women to become completely subjugated under a cloud of glitter and rainbows and if everyone around them seems to be fully on board the transtrain, it can be very isolating.

Yes, this OP. It can be hard to go against the flow of male supremacism in this movement.

It's probably felt a bit like you're getting a hard time on here at times (welcome to FWR, have had my arse handed to me under a different user name many times!) but you are thinking about the women in this and you are doing the right thing, hard though it is to question this male's demands and examine the damage it is doing to others.

There is nothing wrong with putting yourself first either and focusing on friendships that reinforce and lift you up and don't demand that you ignore the truth of your eyes and ears or put aside concerns about others.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 06/10/2022 12:03

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:25

@Helleofabore and @TheClogLady I haven't said she should have to do something she is uncomfortable with. I'm saying that everyone has the right to their own existence and we don't need to be angry with people for living their truth. If OP isn't comfortable then that is absolutely her prerogative. What I'm saying is we shouldn't be so bloody quick to bash people.

For some people "their truth" is that paedophilia is acceptable. "Their truth" is absolut hogwash and incredibly dangerous. If you allow the idea that a man can be a woman is some form of truth then surely the idea that LGB people are evil and are going to hell is also some form of truth, as is the idea that people on benefits should have them removed entirely to encoruage them to get out of their wheelchair and back to work.

Hateful stupid bullcrap, sorry

YouSirNeighMmmm · 06/10/2022 12:05

notasglittery · 05/10/2022 21:36

Just an observation: these fwr threads are always the same.

Predictable, boring, repetitive. There is no discussion, no debate, no learning.
Just people looking to pick apart posts.

If there was a shred of Stonewall ideology promoting content that made 10% sense then presumably the majority would have something to get their teeth into.

When the closest we have to a reasoned argument is "this man's personal truth should be celebrated even as it makes women uncomfortable" it's hard to have a debate that people can learn from

notasglittery · 06/10/2022 13:02

Somewhat off topic but - is religion a personal truth?

chilling19 · 06/10/2022 13:54

OP - sympathies. As a PP said, you have done your best to support the single woman in the group and I hope the talk she has with the recently transitioned friend goes OK. I think it won't because the self entitlement is already evident and there is a possibility of narc rage emerging. Such a shame.

DameHelena · 06/10/2022 16:11

notasglittery · 06/10/2022 13:02

Somewhat off topic but - is religion a personal truth?

I'd say so, yes. To my mind being trans and having a religious faith are similar in that I think it's right that they're protected in law by the EA, but I think they should be treated the same ie everyone has a right to hold and practise a religious faith, but not to the extent that it impinges on others.

VestofAbsurdity · 06/10/2022 17:01

DameHelena · 06/10/2022 16:11

I'd say so, yes. To my mind being trans and having a religious faith are similar in that I think it's right that they're protected in law by the EA, but I think they should be treated the same ie everyone has a right to hold and practise a religious faith, but not to the extent that it impinges on others.

Plus no-one is used to validate anyone's belief in a particular God or Gods, unbelief does not erase the person or their belief, unlike the oft quoted tenets of Gender Ideology whereby unbelief is literal genocide.

DameHelena · 06/10/2022 17:09

VestofAbsurdity · 06/10/2022 17:01

Plus no-one is used to validate anyone's belief in a particular God or Gods, unbelief does not erase the person or their belief, unlike the oft quoted tenets of Gender Ideology whereby unbelief is literal genocide.

Yes, exactly.

AguaFiestaFeminista · 07/10/2022 09:15

Whichwhatnow · 05/10/2022 11:20

Ohhh the room sharing is reminding me of an incident with my lesbian transwoman neighbour. She was attending an event with another gay (not trans) woman and was boasting to us that not only had she persuaded said woman to share a room, but that she had 'accidentally' booked a double rather than twin room. Her words were, and I quote - "well, we'll just see what might happen between us! You know us girls, we know how to get what we want, eh?" - directed at me 😕. This is a fully intact, bearded, hairy chested male (albeit wearing a low cut sparkly mini dress...).

I've written about transwoman neighbour before but this is far from the first time that she has used her status as a 'woman' to lure other women into a kind of false sense of security while in reality just wanting to have sex with them - e.g. 'girly' pyjama parties/getting ready for 'girls' nights' including getting changed together etc etc. She also seems to think that any woman who is bi or lesbian should automatically be willing to sleep with her. It's grim.

Not saying that this is what your friend is doing of course, but it's worth being a little bit vigilant...

He's just a rapist-in-waiting. Makes me feel physically sick.

Caerulea · 07/10/2022 10:34

OP you sound very thoughtful, kind, tolerant & in an incredibly difficult position. It's far easier being militant on this (love the militant ones) than not as you're constantly checking yourself & are too aware of hurting ppl that don't deserve it. Both types of feminists are absolutely required though, those of us tiptoeing through this changing little things along the way & those who loudly tear the whole rotten house down.

I lurk here, first time I've actually posted on this part of MN (obviously don't want to be infected by the rabid fascism & All The Awful Woman Having Opinions And Shit 🤪) & I just wanted to show support.

Fwiw - your TW friend sounds like an absolute arsehole. They probably always have been & have just found the perfect outlet for their bellendry.

TheClogLady · 07/10/2022 12:15

Welcome to the Dark Side, @Caerulea!

for what it’s worth, most of us gobby ones started out more cautiously and somewhere along the line ran out of fucks to give 😉

@wizzywascal - sending best wishes and hoping it’s unfolding in a manner that isn’t too stressful on you and your friend.

Gendercritic · 19/12/2022 20:52

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Justtoshare · 19/12/2022 21:03

YANBU. No need for you to continue the 'friendship'. Sounds like you would save yourself a lot of grief, if you cut back your social interactions. Of course TW ANW.
Some prominent TW (e.g. Debbie Hayton) accept that they are TW rather than W. I'd rather be friends with someone like her. You are free to choose your friends though. For any reason. Life is too short.

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