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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend is now trans and i'm confused

202 replies

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 08:40

Hello! I have NC'd for this but a regular poster. This is my first time posting on FWR though.

I've followed the dialogue on Trans rights closely since noticing the arrival of gender neutral loos. And a particularly traumatic experience in such a loo at a popular bar that required me to walk past a working men's urinal to get to cubicles. There's also been a few times i've had to touch up my lipstick and brush my hair in shared mirrors with some strange guy next to me. Nothing untoward has ever happened, but it has felt uncomfortable.

Recently a close friend of DP has come out as a trans woman and it has really made me question what it means. For context - she is 34 and has cross dressed publicly since uni. But also maintained a big beard, did beer cruises with the lads and has a long term gf, so it just seemed like a straight man who enjoyed cross dressing. There was never any gender confusion expressed and she always seemed happy with the status quo.

She started at a new company just before the pandemic with a very active LGBTQIA community and befriended the founder who wasn't trans (gay) but extremely passionate about the cause, to the point of seeming fanatical. I mean the first time I met him, within 5 mins he launched into tirade over the issue and it came up pretty much every time we saw him even without asking. Friend then went very quiet over the lockdowns and we didn't hear from her much until she popped up on social media with a long post about how she had changed her name by deed poll to start her new identity as a woman. It went on to say how she'd always wondered about her identity but was never sure, but the lockdowns gave her time to think and she realised she identifies as a woman. Regarding transition - she ranted on long wait time for NHS HRT (she is well off and could afford private but isn't considering it for some reason) and that she'd done extensive laser treatments. She's still with her gf (who identifies as straight as far as I know).

Anyway, we've seen her since and initially outside a curiosity as to what promoted the sudden change I didn't pay much heed. However, the first time she came with me to the toilets was a huge shock. She has also gotten very vocal in the community and it's led to some awkward conversations between us. Because to her, she and I are the same, but to me outside of wearing female clothing (which she did even as a man) and having a female name, she's biologically still a woman. I asked her how she knew she was meant to be a woman if she's never been one. And she said she just felt wrong being a man. And this is where I get confused. Growing up as a child in a foreign country I always felt like I didn't fit in with home culture, and identified more with the American culture I saw on TV. But I didn't think I was American. Nor could I have just become one by changing my name. Or DP loves rap music but couldn't just identify as black without uproar.

There's also the issue that she isn't considering transitioning. So it feels like the only thing she really knows and feels about being a woman are the clothing and a higher pitch of speech - which she could have done, and did do, even as a man without any judgement. Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine as a BAME, immigrant woman and honestly I don't know what to think.

It's at a point where I find it stressful meeting her as I don't understand what is going on. It's the first time I've felt like being a woman is now just a label any man can adopt with no entry criteria and that's made my own identity feel de-valued. I'm also worried how far reaching this will be as I see gender neutral changing space and toilets pop up everywhere including schools. I do think her very vocal friend may have convinced her she was trans, as she was isolated at the time and spent most of her time with him. It's a very sudden and drastic turn and I do know she's ASD and will fixate obsessively on perfecting something once she discovers it. As an example she discovered darts, and would spend 4-5 hours every day, and all weekend to get good at it at the same place. Read up extensively etc. This carried on for 6 years until they moved. It's been like this with board games etc too. So I have wondered how much of this is because she's now discovered the trans community. All speculation though and not my place to analyse tbh. Just adding context as to why it's made me question whether it should be this easy to become a woman, as the ramifications for everyone are serious.

Any advice on how to deal with this, so I can spend time with her and be supportive or at least better manage my own confused feelings on the matter?

OP posts:
swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:37

Oh and OP, as you pull away from this racist misogynist, maybe alert this male's female partner to the transwidow's thread on here if you can. I have a feeling she'll need it.

madasawethen · 05/10/2022 09:38

This is a close friend of your DP. What do they think?

IcakethereforeIam · 05/10/2022 09:39

I'd've sworn this was a zombie thread and from several years ago too.

If the friendship no longer works for you op, move on. You've no obligation to be a support human. If you value the friendship, you have to decide if you are willing and able to prioritise it over your own boundaries and values. Or, if your friend values your friendship, perhaps they would be willing and able to make a similar accommodation

HipTightOnions · 05/10/2022 09:39

The girl is the only other single female

No, she is the only single female, and should not be bullied into sharing with a man. You and your friends need to support her.

MissBPotter · 05/10/2022 09:41

Gosh this person sounds horrific, I couldn’t be friends with him anymore.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 09:44

That poor woman.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2022 09:45

No, she is the only single female, and should not be bullied into sharing with a man. You and your friends need to support her.

This. You can't leave it all on her to be denounced as a "terf" or having to share with a male. You need to say this to your partner.

Georgeskitchen · 05/10/2022 09:46

Way too mentally draining.
Find a different friend

MenopausalMe · 05/10/2022 09:47

honestly I don't know what to think

Said as gently as possible… You do know what to think, but you are being pressurised into feeling that what you think is wrong… it isn’t.

  • You are not obligated to validate someone else’s feelings over yours.
  • Your female friend is not obligated to pay for a holiday where she feels uncomfortable and even scared to validate someone else’s feelings. Please support her so she knows she is not alone
  • You are allowed to say this friendship has run its course.
Ramblingnamechanger · 05/10/2022 09:48

Offer to share with the single women. Let the men sort themselves out

Mochudubh · 05/10/2022 09:50

I've said before that if these men really did "feel" like women then they would understand why women do not want biological males in their spaces and stay out. That they don't is proof to me that, whatever they "feel" they are, it's not a woman.

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:52

Mochudubh · 05/10/2022 09:50

I've said before that if these men really did "feel" like women then they would understand why women do not want biological males in their spaces and stay out. That they don't is proof to me that, whatever they "feel" they are, it's not a woman.

Yep, also this.

Rambling's idea is also great. Make it clear to your DP that if you go you'll share with single female friend and he and his friends can sort out the rest. Or you and DP could pull out citing cost of living and that would give cover to single female friend to do the same.

Also, why is the biological male's feelings prioritised over the single woman's if they're both your friends? Why are you / your DP supporting a rape culture attitude of women don't have the right to say no?

Lovelyricepudding · 05/10/2022 09:53

The girl can't cancel as it would mean increased costs for everyone else,

DO NOT put this additional pressure on her. If it increases everyone else's costs to stop one young women from being forced into a position where her boundaries, her privacy, and her safety are ignored then so be it. Otherwise you are all pimping her out.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 09:54

Ramblingnamechanger · 05/10/2022 09:48

Offer to share with the single women. Let the men sort themselves out

Good practical advice... I'd go further, but to be fair this is a genuine compromise that should work for everyone.

UNLESS.... "trans" friend (as I strongly suspect) is after validation and / or sex, not a need to share with an woman for any other reason.

or unless your DP wishes to prioritze sex with you on holiday over your and your single female friend's comfort and privacy and safety.

WillPowerLite · 05/10/2022 09:54

Imagine if your friend had said to you, 'I never felt right as a man. I feel right presenting as a woman. I know I'm not a woman like you are, and I will never feel the struggles of being female as you do. But I want to be as close as I can be to living as a woman. I respect that women need safe spaces and I make them feel uncomfortable and maybe unsafe in toilets and changing rooms, so I will keep using 3rd spaces or the men's. Which I don't like, but I need to respect my sisterhood. I hope I'll be treated as a woman in other areas though."

I mean, you would be nothing but supportive of that, wouldn't you?

Instead, your friend is treating you with contempt and expecting you to 'be kind'.

No wonder you're confused. You can stop being confused and feel kinda pissed off, instead. Start by telling your friend hoe sharing a public toilet with an intact male makes you feel. Is your friend's answer supportive of you?

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 09:55

I wonder how far this poor female is expected to go to prioritise everyone else's comfort?

Exactly how far?

She's already being forced into accommodation she feels uncomfortable in (probably scared also) and she 'can't cancel' because it would cost more for everyone else, regardless of the personal cost to her.

Is she just a support human? .

rookiemere · 05/10/2022 09:59

Yes OP it's all very well wringing your hands and saying how hard it is, but you're not the one feeling that they have to share with a man.

I've been in the situation of being the singleton amongst the couples and it's already hard enough, without effectively feeling obligated to share with someone of the other sex, and I'm suspecting someone who would like to take advantage of the "all girls together " status to force even more uncomfortable situations on that poor woman such as parading around in underwear or naked or staring at her, as they appear to have no normal barriers of personal decency.

You need to get involved either by offering to share with her, or proposing the obvious share that you mentioned.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 05/10/2022 10:04

WillPowerLite · 05/10/2022 09:54

Imagine if your friend had said to you, 'I never felt right as a man. I feel right presenting as a woman. I know I'm not a woman like you are, and I will never feel the struggles of being female as you do. But I want to be as close as I can be to living as a woman. I respect that women need safe spaces and I make them feel uncomfortable and maybe unsafe in toilets and changing rooms, so I will keep using 3rd spaces or the men's. Which I don't like, but I need to respect my sisterhood. I hope I'll be treated as a woman in other areas though."

I mean, you would be nothing but supportive of that, wouldn't you?

Instead, your friend is treating you with contempt and expecting you to 'be kind'.

No wonder you're confused. You can stop being confused and feel kinda pissed off, instead. Start by telling your friend hoe sharing a public toilet with an intact male makes you feel. Is your friend's answer supportive of you?

All fair apart from -

"I hope I'll be treated as a woman in other areas though." How is that different to OP saying, "I know I'm not rigth about absolutely everything, but I want you to pretend I am in our relationship going forward"?

"sharing a public toilet with an intact male". In what way is a man who has had bits removed less of a man than any other man. Does it make a difference whether the penis was removed in an accident or in an operating theatre (if a man is cockless due to surgery is he 50% man, but a man who loses it through choice is only 20% man? 0%?

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 05/10/2022 10:05

As a feminist I support bringing all marginalised of communities into my circle of care.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2022 10:08

Good for you, Slouching! So glad someone has at last stood up for everyone else; bloody women have been moaning on about themselves for far too long.

I can send you a list of marginalised communities you can care for, if you like?

HipTightOnions · 05/10/2022 10:08

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 05/10/2022 10:05

As a feminist I support bringing all marginalised of communities into my circle of care.

Spiffing.

So who do you think should share the bedroom?

Lovelyricepudding · 05/10/2022 10:09

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 05/10/2022 10:05

As a feminist I support bringing all marginalised of communities into my circle of care.

The 'as a feminist' bit is rather superfluous there. Bringing all marginalised under your care may be laudable but nothing to do with feminism.

ChagSameachDoreen · 05/10/2022 10:12

Why are you calling this man "she"?

WillPowerLite · 05/10/2022 10:12

"sharing a public toilet with an intact male". In what way is a man who has had bits removed less of a man than any other man. Does it make a difference whether the penis was removed in an accident or in an operating theatre (if a man is cockless due to surgery is he 50% man, but a man who loses it through choice is only 20% man? 0%?

Because this was about her friend in particular, who is an intact male. In a wider sense, no males - regardless of the state of their tackle - should be in female-only spaces.

Eeksteek · 05/10/2022 10:16

Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine

This. This is what bothers me. To be truly trans in my opinion, you need to give all that up. But by happily retaining male physical appearance, you retain your male privilege. Which women, by definition, do not have. You can’t keep it and be ‘one of us’. You can’t pick and choose the best bits of each gender.

I do wonder, if we had true gender equality, if this would matter to me. But that’s so far off happening as to be pointless speculation. I’m happy to consider trans women women once they have done everything in their power to be perceived as women and given up their male privilege as far as is possible. Yes, there will be a price, and no, it isn’t fair. There are prices for being female, for not being white, being disabled. That’s not fair either. You can’t have it both ways.

I suspect if self ID was removed, and womens spaces were kept penis free (which I think is the least that can be expected), then many trans women would be less committed to their womanhood, because it meant giving up their manhood. Ergo, they did identify as male to an extent after all (if not fully). I do not have a problem with gatekeeping, and I think it’s entirely appropriate.

What an awful situation OP. There isn’t a right answer is, there? Everyone can’t have what they want here. It does sound as though the autism is quite a big factor, too. In the single female’s position, I would pull out.