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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Friend is now trans and i'm confused

202 replies

wizzywascal · 05/10/2022 08:40

Hello! I have NC'd for this but a regular poster. This is my first time posting on FWR though.

I've followed the dialogue on Trans rights closely since noticing the arrival of gender neutral loos. And a particularly traumatic experience in such a loo at a popular bar that required me to walk past a working men's urinal to get to cubicles. There's also been a few times i've had to touch up my lipstick and brush my hair in shared mirrors with some strange guy next to me. Nothing untoward has ever happened, but it has felt uncomfortable.

Recently a close friend of DP has come out as a trans woman and it has really made me question what it means. For context - she is 34 and has cross dressed publicly since uni. But also maintained a big beard, did beer cruises with the lads and has a long term gf, so it just seemed like a straight man who enjoyed cross dressing. There was never any gender confusion expressed and she always seemed happy with the status quo.

She started at a new company just before the pandemic with a very active LGBTQIA community and befriended the founder who wasn't trans (gay) but extremely passionate about the cause, to the point of seeming fanatical. I mean the first time I met him, within 5 mins he launched into tirade over the issue and it came up pretty much every time we saw him even without asking. Friend then went very quiet over the lockdowns and we didn't hear from her much until she popped up on social media with a long post about how she had changed her name by deed poll to start her new identity as a woman. It went on to say how she'd always wondered about her identity but was never sure, but the lockdowns gave her time to think and she realised she identifies as a woman. Regarding transition - she ranted on long wait time for NHS HRT (she is well off and could afford private but isn't considering it for some reason) and that she'd done extensive laser treatments. She's still with her gf (who identifies as straight as far as I know).

Anyway, we've seen her since and initially outside a curiosity as to what promoted the sudden change I didn't pay much heed. However, the first time she came with me to the toilets was a huge shock. She has also gotten very vocal in the community and it's led to some awkward conversations between us. Because to her, she and I are the same, but to me outside of wearing female clothing (which she did even as a man) and having a female name, she's biologically still a woman. I asked her how she knew she was meant to be a woman if she's never been one. And she said she just felt wrong being a man. And this is where I get confused. Growing up as a child in a foreign country I always felt like I didn't fit in with home culture, and identified more with the American culture I saw on TV. But I didn't think I was American. Nor could I have just become one by changing my name. Or DP loves rap music but couldn't just identify as black without uproar.

There's also the issue that she isn't considering transitioning. So it feels like the only thing she really knows and feels about being a woman are the clothing and a higher pitch of speech - which she could have done, and did do, even as a man without any judgement. Nothing else in her life has changed. She still has sex as a man, pees as a man, has male hormones, has the height/muscle of a man (is 6ft 3 and well built) and has spent 34 years enjoying all the privileges of a white, middle class CIS man. But we are now supposed to share the same intimate spaces, and she talks to me as if her life and campaign is harder than mine as a BAME, immigrant woman and honestly I don't know what to think.

It's at a point where I find it stressful meeting her as I don't understand what is going on. It's the first time I've felt like being a woman is now just a label any man can adopt with no entry criteria and that's made my own identity feel de-valued. I'm also worried how far reaching this will be as I see gender neutral changing space and toilets pop up everywhere including schools. I do think her very vocal friend may have convinced her she was trans, as she was isolated at the time and spent most of her time with him. It's a very sudden and drastic turn and I do know she's ASD and will fixate obsessively on perfecting something once she discovers it. As an example she discovered darts, and would spend 4-5 hours every day, and all weekend to get good at it at the same place. Read up extensively etc. This carried on for 6 years until they moved. It's been like this with board games etc too. So I have wondered how much of this is because she's now discovered the trans community. All speculation though and not my place to analyse tbh. Just adding context as to why it's made me question whether it should be this easy to become a woman, as the ramifications for everyone are serious.

Any advice on how to deal with this, so I can spend time with her and be supportive or at least better manage my own confused feelings on the matter?

OP posts:
Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:32

@Helleofabore okay, I'm backing out. You're here for an argument and truth be told I can't be fucked with it. Enjoy being angry 😊

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 21:33

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:30

@TheClogLady when I said bashing people I was referring to being jumped on in the two quoted replies I got lol. People have opinions and that's fine, but when people have differing views being aired it shouldn't immediately be contentious.

Who is’bashing’ anyone?

What a hyperbolic comment.

notasglittery · 05/10/2022 21:36

Just an observation: these fwr threads are always the same.

Predictable, boring, repetitive. There is no discussion, no debate, no learning.
Just people looking to pick apart posts.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 21:36

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:32

@Helleofabore okay, I'm backing out. You're here for an argument and truth be told I can't be fucked with it. Enjoy being angry 😊

Probably for the best, bit insensitive of you to interrupt OPs support thread to advocate for ‘celebrating’ a boundary pushing male who is making at least two women uncomfortable.

Also, not angry, merely strident.

lady69 · 05/10/2022 21:37

*He

notasglittery · 05/10/2022 21:37

I also think a good amount of these accounts are sock puppets 😂😂

PomegranateOfPersephone · 05/10/2022 21:38

What is a sock puppet in this context?

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 21:38

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:32

@Helleofabore okay, I'm backing out. You're here for an argument and truth be told I can't be fucked with it. Enjoy being angry 😊

I see.

Strangely, more hyperbole. I am not angry. I am merely telling you that scolding women for not believing a male is ‘living their truth’ by living as if they are female and expecting to share a room with single female is not something to celebrate.

HTH

VestofAbsurdity · 05/10/2022 22:02

Wfhandbored · 05/10/2022 21:17

Okay I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anyone but a trans person doesn't owe an explanation to anyone. She may have been stuffing these feelings away and emphasising her previous masculinity to hide her truth. Also the process for surgical transition is incredibly difficult, long, complex and painful. She doesn't need to go through all that to meet her truth. She's being her authentic self and it should be celebrated.

What a load of emotional guilt tripping, hyperbolic shite.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 22:20

Oh I don’t know. I love a good emotional appeal to ‘let them live their truth’ post. It is not like we don’t see them daily.

I always wonder how they cope with the dissonance clanging away when they assure us that males are ‘living their truth’ as females.

Errr. No. Living their truth would be living as a male who lives as they perceive a female lives, but knowing they are still male and they are not female in any way.

That means not using female single sex spaces. And not using emotional manipulation to share a room with a female who then feels pressured to agree.

This male’s behaviour is not to be celebrated! And pointing out it is not celebration worthy is not ‘bashing’ anyone.

The emotional manipulation that goes along with those posts describing those males as ‘living their truth’ do get one thing right though. A person who doesn’t care about the needs of women and girls goes ahead and does what they want despite the harm they do. That is their truth. They don’t care about other’s needs at all.

So, yes, they are ‘living their truth’ in that respect. They are telling women and girls exactly who they are.

Faffertea · 05/10/2022 22:21

I also think a good amount of these accounts are sock puppets

Cos there couldn’t be loads of different women who are fed up of this shit.

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 22:30

Well for every thread that successfully escapes to AIBU and gets a poll happening must mean there is over 1500 sock puppeting posters skewing the vote.

Never mind that many FWR regulars don’t go on the AiBU threads.

But I do remember that one extremist activist poster said they estimated there was less than 2000 feminists believing that sex should be prioritised over gender in the entire UK.

And there is that joke that it is just six people with many sock puppets on FWR really. I mean, really hard to keep the personality traits up for each sock, but hey ho. Those six people must be exhausted geniuses to keep it up the way they do!

IcakethereforeIam · 05/10/2022 22:35

Why should someone's 'authentic self' be celebrated. I live as a woman every day, nobody buys me cake.

As a wider issue, some people's 'authentic selves' should never see the light of day. 'Authentic selves' tend to emerge when they think nobody is watching.

TheClogLady · 05/10/2022 22:53

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 22:30

Well for every thread that successfully escapes to AIBU and gets a poll happening must mean there is over 1500 sock puppeting posters skewing the vote.

Never mind that many FWR regulars don’t go on the AiBU threads.

But I do remember that one extremist activist poster said they estimated there was less than 2000 feminists believing that sex should be prioritised over gender in the entire UK.

And there is that joke that it is just six people with many sock puppets on FWR really. I mean, really hard to keep the personality traits up for each sock, but hey ho. Those six people must be exhausted geniuses to keep it up the way they do!

Can you imagine the sheer hours it would take to write all the posts if you and I were one person?

Ain’t nobody got time for that!

beastlyslumber · 05/10/2022 23:10

Awful how gender ideology tears family and friendship groups apart.

I wonder how your friend's girlfriend is feeling. Maybe you can point her to the trans widows threads on here.

deeperthanallroses · 05/10/2022 23:17

Helleofabore · 05/10/2022 22:30

Well for every thread that successfully escapes to AIBU and gets a poll happening must mean there is over 1500 sock puppeting posters skewing the vote.

Never mind that many FWR regulars don’t go on the AiBU threads.

But I do remember that one extremist activist poster said they estimated there was less than 2000 feminists believing that sex should be prioritised over gender in the entire UK.

And there is that joke that it is just six people with many sock puppets on FWR really. I mean, really hard to keep the personality traits up for each sock, but hey ho. Those six people must be exhausted geniuses to keep it up the way they do!

My heart goes out to the exhausted geniuses!

UniversalAunt · 05/10/2022 23:52

To borrow from Ricky Gervais…

’I mean, no-one who claims to be a woman could possibly use theirher’ penis for sex without being massively triggered,, surely?

Francesgumm · 06/10/2022 08:44

IcakethereforeIam · 05/10/2022 22:35

Why should someone's 'authentic self' be celebrated. I live as a woman every day, nobody buys me cake.

As a wider issue, some people's 'authentic selves' should never see the light of day. 'Authentic selves' tend to emerge when they think nobody is watching.

Totally agree @IcakethereforeIam - but you say it much better than I could have done! Stunning and brave? I think not.

swordfishspoons · 06/10/2022 09:14

I mean the 'authentic self' of this male coercing his 'friend' into sharing with him seems to be a narcissistic, abusive, misogynistic arsehole totally lacking in empathy or consideration for women. 'Authentic selves' are often quite unpleasant.

Presumably the 'authentic self' of paeodophiles is to go around raping children so we'd rather they didn't, thanks. Also, it's illegal, rightly to protect children and the rest of society.

I'm rather suspicious of the idea that 'authentic selves' should always be celebrated. Not when they damage other people.

OhamIreally · 06/10/2022 09:20

swordfishspoons · 05/10/2022 10:19

I hope the single female wises up pretty fucking quickly to how little everyone genuinely cares about her as a human being, how incredibly lopsided her so-called friendships are and she cancels and uses the money she saves to join some clubs where she will develop some mutually respectful friendships.

Because she's being used as a service human here.

Boule de Suif

swordfishspoons · 06/10/2022 09:22

notasglittery · 05/10/2022 21:37

I also think a good amount of these accounts are sock puppets 😂😂

Accusations are admissions.

I think the opposite is true. I think there are loads of posters on here that have good chunks of months away then come back to post sporadically when they can fit it in. I have actual kids and parents to take care of and a job to do, i.e. lots of real life womaning like most women on here, I don't really have the time.

I really should learn to just step away but I keep coming back largely because MN is still an entry point for women fed up with this shit in real life a bit like the OP and looking for answers.

I don't need to be here any more, I have other places to get support from other women now which are truly women centred, but I come back occasionally for the lurkers and new posters.

TheKeatingFive · 06/10/2022 09:25

What could be more arrogant than a refusal to believe that more than one person disagrees with you?

😂

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 06/10/2022 09:29

She's being her authentic self and it should be celebrated.

What’s to celebrate? Apparently this person’s “authentic self” is a self-obsessed boundary-crossing disrespectful pushy bore.

AtrociousCircumstance · 06/10/2022 09:59

OP what are you planning to do to support your friend re the holiday?

I don’t think there is any way to ‘save’ the friendship group from changes, whatever you do now, so please do what you feel to be right.

Please support your friend, even if that means supporting her right to pull out of the holiday meaning you have to pay more.

What price the rights of a woman not to feel violated and uncomfortable?

Helleofabore · 06/10/2022 10:01

but a trans person doesn't owe an explanation to anyone.

No, they don't 'owe' an explanation.

AND neither then do the women who reject this person's presence in the toilet or when saying 'no, I don't want to share a room with you.'

I don't believe that OP has demanded an explanation. I do think that those prospectively going on this trip though is in the uncomfortable position of being the ones who are 'living the truth' and that male is 'living in their own version of truth' that does not match the truth that the women in this group feel that their boundaries have been ignored here. That is 'living their truth'.

She may have been stuffing these feelings away and emphasising her previous masculinity to hide her truth.

'her truth'. This person's truth is that they are male. And it really cannot be said enough times because this ridiculous childish notion that saying 'living their truth' 'living authentically' means that a person can then expect others to live with an 'untruth' to allow this person's 'truth'. Just saying something is 'true' or 'authentic' does quite reflect the 'truth'.

What you actually mean is 'perception of truth' which don't reflect the facts.

To be clear. This male is a male with all that entails. It does not matter one jot about 'stuffing these feelings away and emphasising her previous masculinity to hide her truth'. That is just another call for the OP to accept emotional manipulation from this person and from Wfhandbored who posted it with the intention of shaming people who don't believe they need to uphold another person's perception of truth.

A male can be as masculine or feminine (and fuck, I hate those descriptions) as they want. They are male.

This person wants to be treated, for whatever their reasons, as a female for all intents and purposes. There are times when this is unacceptable and those times differ for many people.

When I hear those overly emotional and childish refrains 'living as my authentic self' or 'living their truth' from males who identify themselves as women, I know exactly what they are saying. They are not telling the truth at all.

They are signalling that for 'them' to live their 'truth' requires someone else to lower their boundaries and to expect conflict if those boundaries are not lowered sufficiently for that person to continue to do what they want.

As I said last night. If this person was 'living their truth', they would fully acknowledge they are male and that there will be aspects of the life they desire that they will not be able to have.

That would be a person 'living their truth'

Such as they should not use female single sex spaces, they should not force others to use language that those other's do not wish to use, they should not manipulate situations where people, particularly female, are coerced in any way to accept them as female.

'living their truth'. Just another lie really.