Men of the far right and the women's movement

[SapphosRock]

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

My enemy’s enemy is my friend.

An interesting article. Somewhat more measured than what I’ve seen of what’s been going on on twitter.

I agree that care needs to be taken when extremist groups take an interest.

however, it does feel like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I was a Brighton. The way the ‘protestors’ behaved and their slogans; a lot of them were young and naive, but a lot of them were indiscernible from fascists. I just looked the term up in the dictionary. This whole debacle has brought out fascist on the left and on the right. I don’t personally feel responsible for either group.

Jean wasn't there and yet is able to tell us all about "members" being in an "inner circle" ?

What is an "inner circle" I wonder?

I heard women are responsible for the behaviour of men.

Jean loves stirring the old drama pot eh? She never seems to tire of it.

I completely agree that Hearts of Oak and organisations like it have nothing valuable to offer and that the views held in such organisations are abhorrent. In any gathering of general public there will be people with views many of us find objectionable. HoO did not speak at the event in Brighton. If they had expressed racist or misogynistic views they would have been given very short shrift. Same with Sophie Corcorran. There are always bad people and bad groups hanging around trying to take advantage in any political situation. Standing for Women, stand on a single issue. One issue. I don't see how that organisation can be tarred with the same brush through guilt by association. It is so childish and is causing division where there should be unity of purpose. Great that Jean Hatchett has pointed out that they were there. Now we can ignore them as irrelevant and get on with the job at hand.

If you think the women attending are empty vessels waiting to have their brains taken over by the far-right then I suppose it makes sense.

If you have faith that women can make their own political decisions, that the very vast majority of women attending are pro-women's and children's rights, are not racist or homophobic already, then it seems a bit hyperbolic.

It's almost like she enjoys it 🤔🤔🤔

Jean Hatchett ? Just stirring please ignore.

Now we can ignore them as irrelevant and get on with the job at hand.

Yes please, let's stop giving them oxygen.

The problem that KJK has is the same one that befell Facebook, Twitter, numerous forums before them, and every other platform that starts out with libertarian ideals about free speech. They always, always get exploited, and eventually taken over by, fascists. These people know exactly what they’re doing.

It’s why we have to have online moderation, it’s why we need laws that control hate speech. It’s why we need single sex spaces - give ‘em an inch.

It’s utterly naive to expect a free speech platform not to be exploited. It never, ever works.

I read somewhere, can’t remember where, a story that illustrated why online moderation is always needed. It was about a bar. A man was chatting to the barman on a quiet afternoon when a skinhead came in and ordered a drink. He was perfectly polite and respectful, but the barman said sorry, and refused service. The skinhead left. The man asked the barman why he wouldn’t serve and he said it doesn’t matter how quiet and polite the first ones might be, you let one in and before you know it you’re a Nazi bar.

KJK is either very naive or doesn’t care what her bar will become.

that befell Facebook, Twitter, numerous forums before them, and every other platform that starts out with libertarian ideals about free speech. They always, always get exploited, and eventually taken over by, fascists.

Are you seriously saying that Facebook has been taken over by actual fascists?

I think Sappho has just posted this to keep stirring the pot too.

But @TheLeadbetterLife KJK has already set boundaries by allowing women to speak at these events, women only. Then gay men if there is time, then supportive men. The women speak on this issue. There is no space at the bar for anyone discussing anything not related to this issue. It is single issue. There is no general discussion on other topics.

Interesting line in the article:
Racist or homophobic views are not worthy of respect in a democratic society...

I await all those generally on the "progressive" left and feminists to loudly denounce and distance themselves from the flagrant racists in the Labour party. I have yet to see that happen.

Recent “Standing For Women” events have seen unpleasant and aggressive protests from trans activist thugs in black military style outfits and masks. ----> these are all left wing activists

These misogynist men are determined to silence women’s voices about the clash between women’s rights and ever increasing demands by trans activists. ----> these are all left wing activists

On Sunday, police kept a line between the women wishing to speak and the protesters wishing to drown them out with cries of “fascist”. ----> these are all left wing activists

At one point the female event stewards had to surround a woman in a wheelchair to protect her from the trans activists. ----> these are all left wing activists

A smoke bomb was taken from them by police and a man arrested; ----> these are all left wing activists; also a bloke had a bag of knives.

a trans activist screamed in the face of a man holding a baby and called it a fascist; ----> she works for a Labour MP

another woman from the protest threw glitter in a black woman’s dreadlocks. ----> these are all left wing activists

When are feminists and other left wing people going to clear these kinds from their midst? They are present in every left wing and activist group and within the Labour party, Green party etc.

Why the blatant covering up of all these left wing activists by hiding their political allegiance with leftist politics?

Moreover, the idea of views that are WORIADS really worries me. Who gets to decide which views are WORIADS? Bad ideas don't go away because people are banned from speaking them, they are disinfected by sunlight, reason, and argument. The primary strategy in the genderism movement is still "no debate". It is because under scrutiny the arguments for genderism would not reach the level of WORIADS. They fall apart as incoherent and illogical.

Why the blatant covering up of all these left wing activists by hiding their political allegiance with leftist politics?

Well, quite, Nonny!

Quite a few of these balaclava clad left wing activists even identify as ‘left wing women’! They are claiming to be the same as the women who are attacking Posie!

I find far more sense in DJ Lippy’s analysis of the situation than I do in Jean’s.

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/feminism-and-the-far-left-let-women-speak

The issues on Facebook caused by lack of moderation that allowed the algorithms to excessively promote organisations like QAnon and the Proud Boys are well known. Zuckerberg doesn’t want to pay for the necessary moderation to keep hate speech off the platform, claiming that he’s all for free speech.

it happens again and again. It happened to Stonewall ffs! As is discussed on here all day everyday. Politics is a constant push-pull of competing interests, and there are some interests that know full well their route to mainstream success is only via parasitic latching on to other movements. Same thing has happened with entryists in both Labour and the Tories.

People can either take control of it and make it clear that fascists are not welcome, or cry “free speech, not my monkeys!” and watch as their movement gets destroyed from the inside.

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/theres-conversation-has-be-had

The meeting was advertised in the official conference guide, but organisers said that party officials had refused their application for an exhibition stand at the conference venue.

This year’s 150 exhibitors include Sainsbury’s, the Falkland Islands, and His Majesty’s Government of Gibraltar, as well as the BBC, GB News and the Morning Star.

Oh. My. God. Labour Women's Declaration were denied an exhibition stand but GB News, that bastion of fascist broadcasting, was allowed?!?! 😱😱😱😱😱

What are we to make of this?? What's becoming of the Labour Party??

Because tighter internet moderation has been working out SO well for women, hasn’t it?

😅

The ONLY reason we are even able to post about this topic here on Mumsnet is due to Justine’s commitment to speech as free as possible, while keeping the lights on at MNHQ and navigating the UK’s ridiculous ‘hate speech’ overreach, overreach that you seem to think doesn’t go far enough?

Despite our police already believing they have a right to ‘check our thinking’?

’No Thank You’

Big Tech and many political parties (and unions, and book clubs, and student societies, and fandoms, and crafting communities) have also been subverted by people trying to police free speech.

As noted above, a lot of these people also have fascistic tendencies.

Given that the association being made in this thread between fascism and free speech is ahistorical (to put it very very mildly) if I were starting a political organisation I’d be more worried about the (fascist-adjacent) trying to police speech than the (fascist-adjacent) trying to exploit free speech. I think Posie is making the right call and this thread unintentionally demonstrates it.

Excellent article.

@TastefulRainbowUnicorn I don't follow your final sentence. Can you expand a bit? I'm not being provocative - genuine desire to understand. How does the thread unintentionally demonstrate it?

This is really getting on my nerves now.

Hearts of Oak were not there with Posie Parker. That is an indisputable fact and it is beyond ridiculous to try to argue the pure fantasy they were.

Hearts of Oak have links with a prominent transactivist. The comments when they posted their video included the T word and other anti-woman abuse. If they were with anyone (which they probably weren't) they were with the transactivists.

Do some women want to see women's rights movement destroyed because they're so pissed off and jealous that they aren't getting the headlines? Are they so willing to lie and feed the likes of spiteful Owen Jones rather than congratulate another woman?

I posted this on the Carly May Kavanagh thread earlier but it’s relevant here too:

We had a good ol’ try at changing the left from within, but at this point, it feels like being repeatedly punched in the face by our left wing MPs (who we have door knocked and leaflet dropped for) whilst simultaneously being DARVO’d by anonymous males in black uniforms who ^identify* as being US!

When you consider that the ‘antifascists’ are the nearest contemporary, western thing we’ve got to actual fascism it’s perhaps not surprising that they also use other words in a similar, reality-concealing manner. Prime example: ‘woman’

we’ve already been talking about right/left libertarian/fascism (and the left’s tendency to cry fascist at pretty much anyone to shut them down) on the Sarah Ditum thread for about a week.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4640337-sarah-ditum-on-posie-parker

Hearts of Oak aren’t Fascists.

Christian Right Wingers, sure, but actual Fascists? No.

Britain does still have a Facist org, the National Front. It’s been around since the 1970s and is down to around 29 members.

www.workersliberty.org/story/2022-07-23/rise-and-decline-national-front