Men of the far right and the women's movement

[SapphosRock]

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

It’s also important that the media and politicians don’t think the Brighton feminists agree with PP’s views on forced sterilisation etc.

especially with the politically sensitive court cases etc that are happening here.

It’s also important that the media and politicians don’t think the Brighton feminists agree with PP’s views on forced sterilisation etc.

It's not important at all. It's irrelevant. The Brigton Real Feminists are irrelevant. The media and politicians don't care about you, because you are basically dancing to the TRAs' tune.

the opinions of the media and MPs are irrelevant to the courts.

The only opinions that matters are those of the judges/magistrates (and juries, where relevant).

‘Forced sterilisation’ is pure hyperbole.

How about that sin page for Julie? Got it started?

It’s also important that the media and politicians don’t think the Brighton feminists agree with PP’s views on forced sterilisation etc.

But it is not important that media and politicians don’t see Brighton feminists as bullies, and as extremists themselves calling for denouncements as proof of purity?

Again. Good to know that Brighton feminists are not worried about being seen to be bullies and totalitarian.

You don't need to make that distinction, because Posie makes it. There's no way she wants to be aligned. That's why she doesn't call herself a feminist. Its completely deliberate.

And the context of that remark was that she was goaded behind endurance and said it out of a sense of frustration. Which you were told before. She also qualified, afterwards, that she certainly didn't believe in forced sterilisation. Which you were also told!

I've never even heard of the Brighton feminists. Have they been on talk radio and American TV, Sky News and Piers Morgan, and quoted in mainstream media?

Sappho, I think you're struggling with your loyalties. You stopped being a TRA, because you saw the damage being done. But I don't think you can relinquish allegiances, which is entirely understandable, but is providing a conflict.

Datun, I think you called it.

We’re on thread 3 (?) now and Sapphos and her friends are at the point of “let’s fling enough shit and see how much sticks”.

Yes, Datun. Sappho may have realised what's wrong with gender ideology but she has yet to have fully shifted to a GC position. One foot on each side of the fence. It's untenable.

It's occurred to me.

When people make these lists of why someone might oppose gender ideology, say 1) medical issues for kids, 2) homophobia, etc,

and is saying some of these are ok, and some aren't, I think maybe they are seeing all of these as totally discrete and exclusive. Which isn't really the case.

I don't think there is anyone opposed to it, including the far right and fascists, who are not concerned about the medical effects on kids, or the safety of women and girls. I know it might be shocking to some but even fascists have normal feelings for their kids, wives, mums, and so on. So really, if people are working towards that with a far right person they are likely all on the same page there.

But I think the Real Feminists have realized that gender ideology has revealed that some of the elements in movements around women's rights or gay rights may have been on weaker ground than others, and that scares them. Some of the stuff around the idea that differences in male and female behaviour, on a group level, being wholly socialized, for example. Or some of the "love is love" sloganing, or the assumption that by some that the law must always be sex blind.

These ideas have been questioned more by some people who didn't before. Personally, I think that is a good thing, movements always have some elements that are stronger than others and it's normal and healthy to shed the less robust stuff. You get a stronger set of ideas, more in touch with reality, at the end.

But I suspect this is what some of the Real Feminists may mean when they say that the Far Right will be spreading their ideas. They mean, they may point out some weaknesses in the Real Feminist, or actually in the left wing position. And people might listen. They might listen to a Jordan Peterson lecture and decide he isn't actually completely out to lunch.

As far as they are concerned that is being infiltrated by the far right.

There is no harassment of PP.

The Brighton feminists wanted to make it very clear that the SFW event was nothing to do with them and distance themselves from PP.

So the Brighton feminists haven't also then be involved in pressuring others who spoke that day ? Not even on Brighton feminist?

Have Brighton Feminists then officially distanced themselves from those women who have pressured or cross a line when pressuring Maya and Helen Joyce to denounce? No? Because I sense that Maya and Helen feel harassed by this time. And I certainly think that KJK felt harassed from the first tweet and her finding that sin list.

But.... obviously there is a 'low bar' for some and a very 'high bar' of when it crosses into harassment for others.

And harassed for what again, exactly? Let's be really clear again what was it that KJK did to deserve a 'sin list' and to be vilified?

Was she allowed to have a 'difference of opinion'?

on Brighton feminist = one Brighton feminist

I was fairly indifferent to Posie before, I thought she was an effective campaigner but that her videos got a bit repetitive. I haven’t been to any of her events because Sundays are the only day I see all my children in one room.

Having spent the last 14 fact checking the bizarre accusations against Posie, ngl, I’ve become a bit of a fan. Yes, she sometimes lets her mouth run away with her in a way that can be uncharitably interpreted by her detractors but when you really look into what the opinions are (no tolerance for male kink, outright rejection of surrogacy and serious doubts about donor conception, anti porn/anti prostitution and all associated sanitised forms of sex work, insistence that the safety of babies and children is prioritised over the wants of adults.

when you look into her supposed terrible transgressions she actually seems to be in front of the feminist masses - eg criticising the symbolism of the hijab and fears for the health, safety and well being of children whose mothers used banned substances in pregnancy/prior to pregnancy and those children who are being told they have to call their male parent their mother or their female their father (something we should’ve all learned from listening to trans widows).

There really is very little between the opinions of Posie and those of respected radical feminists like Julia Long, Sheila Jeffreys and yes, Julie Bindel.

The major difference between those three and Posie is that Posie is a heterosexual married mother of 4 who bleaches her hair and wears lipstick?

And I still don‘t know if the drama erupted because they have issues with Posie or because they have issues with some dudes in the audience who filmed Posie.

The goalpost seems so keep moving there.

Not comparing any movements, nor the strategies, but this is almost more drama than when this ultra-libertarian anti-police Bundy-guy threw his support behind Black Lives Matter (they want to defund the police, after all) and all his buddies went berserk, because BLM were ‚the wrong allies‘. Hard to envision, though, that BLM would have been ostracized, because some libertarian, white, nutter like Bundy found his way to their protests, supporting their cause.

Anyone who may be in anyway confused as to how supporting other women and their free speech is done regardless of whether you agree 20%, 50% or 99% with their view, pop over to the Caroline Farrow thread.

Not sure I have read that many people there agree with her about, well much beyond some basic things, but many posters are there defending her right not to be persecuted by a vexatious litigator. And to not be hauled into the police station yet again.

Some posters question this phenomenon when they see it here on MN. But to me it shows that many MNers will stand up against other women when things go too far.

I read Posie's post to be suggestive, rather than prescriptive and an expression of exasperation, not advocating violence. I.e., if you despise your female body so much and want to be a man, and force society to see you and treat you as a man, perhaps you should go the whole hog and get sterilised, rather than doing the most female thing it's possible to do (conceive, grow and birth a baby); and go on to give that child an utterly confusing childhood, and possibly one beset by illness due to T passing through the placenta. Twitter's not a great vehicle for nuance, but I've been watching PP long enough to know that she is not advocating for forced sterilisation. She is actively campaigning for women who think they identify as men to be helped and counselled before they do these sorts of harms to their bodies.

Bitossi if I took everything at face value that someone wrote on Twitter in some heated argument, I‘d have a 20 volume sin registry by now - half of it filled with TRAs.

That said, I have difficulty wrapping my head around a condition, where your body dysphoria makes you suffer so much you wear binders and eventually go for surgery and life-Long injections with T, being reminded of your biology by wrong pronouns unsettles you (and I am not mocking this, I do believe that gender dysphoria can be very, very hard to endure), and then you opt for growing a pregnancy-swollen belly and a condition that reminds you every f*ing Moment of your biology?

(I didn’t particularly enjoy these changes and I‘m not gender dysphoric.)

@deepwatersolo Well I guess pregnant adult human females are ten a penny. Nobody's making documentaries about your special struggles or giving you column inches in an International newspaper for merely being a pregnant woman. Slap on a bit of man face, though, and well - This Morning here we come!

Just found this. Was looking for somewhere to keep it and this thread seemed apt! (From Gia Milinovich substack)

Nice diagram. And the strategy of The Real Feminists is obviously, to prevent White Nationalists from voicing or even having an opinion on the overlapping part and from filming and publishing anything on the issue, so they don‘t get confused with feminists or something. And only once this is achieved pure feminist action can take place.

This is a very viable strategy and not at all a distraction to prevent women from efficient organizing. As someone who considers global warming as greatest threat to humanity (which I fervently do), let me also propose that women desist from any action and organizing that is not carbon neutral…🙄

Nice diagram.

deepwatersolo I know your post is sarcastic but I agree with every word, as do many other feminists.

Carbon neutral climate change activism also makes sense to me 🤷‍♀️

I've followed I don't know how many threads about this without commenting, trying to make sense of some of your scattergun posts Sappho. But that one explained everything, especially this part:
There is a lot of sensitive stuff happening here. Women's services are under attack and there is a lot of progress being made behind closed doors.

I'm a bit surprised you said it out loud but thank you for the illumination. So, sensitive, private stuff? And I guess some of the people concerned will only agree to progress if certain conditions are met?

I'm not unsympathetic. I'm sceptical, and I do wonder what other terms you and your friends will have to accept 'behind closed doors' in the name of 'progress' - because I cannot believe it will end with denouncing KJK. But then I don't have to live in Brighton and maybe you'll succeed in carving out some kind of buffer zone for you and your loved ones. Good luck with it.

However I am finding it very hard to draw a distinction between your accusation that KJK is getting dangerously close to people who are no friends to women, and your own behaviour. I'm not going to say out loud what I think about that as I have no intention of getting a deletion on your account so let's leave it there.

I'm not sure that Venn diagram is actually very accurate.

I realize I am missing the point, but inaccurate Venn diagrams really bother me.