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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men of the far right and the women's movement

463 replies

SapphosRock · 28/09/2022 16:12

Excellent article from Jean Hatchett about the recent fascism debate.

https://thecritic.co.uk/men-of-the-far-right-and-the-womens-movement/

This bit really struck me:

On one side of the fence are aggressive men screaming “fascist” at women who are clearly not. On the other side, skulking in the shadows, beneath the banners of women, are men who clearly are.

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TheClogLady · 07/10/2022 13:46

SapphosRock · 07/10/2022 12:56

Nice diagram.

deepwatersolo I know your post is sarcastic but I agree with every word, as do many other feminists.

Carbon neutral climate change activism also makes sense to me 🤷‍♀️

It’s very hard to balance the right to a reasonable standard of living for the poor and the lower paid working class (and people in developing countries) with climate change activism.

It’s a luxury belief, imo. The people who are expected to sacrifice the most are the people who currently have the least.

I don’t consider it to be left wing at all, it’s fake left-wing, like the subsection of the Green Party who are really just NIMBY Tories with a new coloured rosette.

MangyInseam · 07/10/2022 15:22

TheClogLady · 07/10/2022 13:46

It’s very hard to balance the right to a reasonable standard of living for the poor and the lower paid working class (and people in developing countries) with climate change activism.

It’s a luxury belief, imo. The people who are expected to sacrifice the most are the people who currently have the least.

I don’t consider it to be left wing at all, it’s fake left-wing, like the subsection of the Green Party who are really just NIMBY Tories with a new coloured rosette.

Conservatives who comment on climate stuff most interestingly usually talk about it in this way.

Not that they don't see that it's a problem, but they ask for the economic effects of the policies will be to be laid out openly and with rigour, and mostly, they don't get a straight answer.

That includes the effects on the poor but also the real effects in terms of things like costs of manufactured goods, or whether we could still even have a lot of the consumer goods we use.

TheClogLady · 07/10/2022 15:37

Yes ^

And this is one of the many reasons why people in the NE and Red Wall seats have been voting Conservative - Labour has been squatted by people who identify as Left while espousing policy that hurts the working classes/people living in the former mining towns.

I bet Saph’s Real Feminists are Open Borders enthusiasts too, despite that being the most obviously Neoliberal position known to human kind.

I really do think we are in the midst of one of those massive political party switcharoos akin to the historical swap over between Democrats and Republicans.

Tarquin and his Brighton Trustafarians have colonised Labour and anywhere north of Watford Gap services is looking on in horror (and holding their noses and voting Tory/spoiling their ballots/not bothering to vote at all)

it’s infuriating that a bunch of southerners who have never had an industrial past to lose are making stupid party policy decisions and expecting the people who Labour was founded for to just go along with it, even though we can see via our own lived experience that it’s fucking us over.

And THEN they have the gall to call US stupid and accuse us of voting against our own best interests 🤦‍♀️

deepwatersolo · 07/10/2022 16:34

I‘ll believe that ‚left‘ politicians make left politics on global warming, when they seriously try to push through an absolute ban of private jets.

Before that, spare me the crocodile tears and all the demands to heat less, get rid of all nonelectric cars and whatnot.
Billionaires are flying to space and generally have carbon footprints like whole communities but our car-rides are the problem… yeah, right.

MangyInseam · 08/10/2022 01:22

TheClogLady · 07/10/2022 15:37

Yes ^

And this is one of the many reasons why people in the NE and Red Wall seats have been voting Conservative - Labour has been squatted by people who identify as Left while espousing policy that hurts the working classes/people living in the former mining towns.

I bet Saph’s Real Feminists are Open Borders enthusiasts too, despite that being the most obviously Neoliberal position known to human kind.

I really do think we are in the midst of one of those massive political party switcharoos akin to the historical swap over between Democrats and Republicans.

Tarquin and his Brighton Trustafarians have colonised Labour and anywhere north of Watford Gap services is looking on in horror (and holding their noses and voting Tory/spoiling their ballots/not bothering to vote at all)

it’s infuriating that a bunch of southerners who have never had an industrial past to lose are making stupid party policy decisions and expecting the people who Labour was founded for to just go along with it, even though we can see via our own lived experience that it’s fucking us over.

And THEN they have the gall to call US stupid and accuse us of voting against our own best interests 🤦‍♀️

What I don't understand is why no one seems to really want to engage with those kinds of questions about environmental policy? Because surely if you think it's important you'd want to? Need, to, in fact?

I think you are possibly right about the switchiroo. I will be interested to see how this goes in the UK. One of the elements of the last federal election here in Canada is that the Tories included bringing in worker rights legislation in their manifesto. The kind of stuff you might have expected from a workers party. I've wondered if there will not be similar moves elsewhere.

Though I saw an film a year or so ago that touched on the Repblicans and Democrats and the idea that they changed positions. It argued that in fact no such switch had taken place, and the Democrats were still very much the party of Jim Crow, just in a different form. It was very interesting.

But yes, the political left parties now espouses so many positions that are basically neoliberal, which are obviously not going to appeal most to workers.

DeeKavCoffee · 08/10/2022 01:30

It would be great if the UK didn't have a career structure for "shock jocks" who would hijack legitimate movements to get a chance to say something controversial to try get a GB News segment...that idiot Corcoran comes to mind.

BrrrGettingColder · 08/10/2022 01:40

It would be great to recognise and acknowledge the truth that women have been oppressed in all cultures, the whole world over, all down through all of time, by men.

Oppressed by men, and men's greater propensity and capability for violence against women.

But that's being mean and a bitch, apparently, currently.

beastlyslumber · 08/10/2022 06:38

Why would that be great? I'm not into victimhood. I don't think women are always universally oppressed in all of history and the present. I don't think woman = victim.

beastlyslumber · 08/10/2022 06:40

I actually came on here to say I wonder if the Real Feminists are going to cancel JKR for wearing a KJK t-shirt for the Scottish rally... Grin

TheClogLady · 08/10/2022 11:25

beastlyslumber · 08/10/2022 06:38

Why would that be great? I'm not into victimhood. I don't think women are always universally oppressed in all of history and the present. I don't think woman = victim.

In addition I personally believe that teaching this to teenage girls is adding to the current mental health crisis in that group and driving some of the motivation to transition.

if we keep telling girls that life is shit for women and then a TRA swoops in at school or online and says ‘don’t worry about all that oppression stuff, becoming a woman is optional, you can just be a boy instead, or non-binary, your mum is stupid to accept oppression, you can be clever and opt out’ we a) can’t really blame our daughters for wanting what looks like a functional solution (transition to male) for an unsolvable problem (the never ending oppression of women and girls) and b) we really do have to have a good hard look at our own contribution to their desperation for a solution.

Yes, women and men are different because we are mammals, no, that doesn’t mean women are lesser, but yes it means women need some additional protections such a refuges, and maternity protections in the workplace and access to a fair welfare safety net, because we can’t identify out of being (on average) smaller and less strong, nor being the half of the species that births babies, or gets left holding said babies. We are also more likely to become disabled as we get older (although boys are more likely to be born with disabilities) and to live long enough to become vulnerable due to infirmity.

Much of this reduces our earning power whilst also increasing our lifetime bare necessity costs for health and social care, housing etc.

Making a rational case for the inequalities to be understood and mitigated by families, communities, workplaces and society as a whole does not need to involve scaring girls until they cannot face being women.

My life would’ve been very different if I were male, but I really don’t think it would’ve been better. So many men of similar age (mid 40s to mid 50s) are suffering from depression and alcoholism, many are workaholics stuck on an earnings treadmill to pay the bills with not much quality of life and not great relationships with their children. If they are divorced then loneliness is a massive factor that middle aged and up women are far better at solving than their male counterparts. One of my neighbours recently took his own life, he fits the statistics perfectly.

I’m not saying this to start a ‘what about the menz’ conversation, this is FWR and it’s not our responsibility to fix broken men, nor mother adults, I just want to point out that the ‘all women are oppressed and all men are oppressors’ narrative may actually be harming the girls we say we want to help.

Our girls need to know that being a woman has it’s difficulties, but actually, on the whole, it’s pretty fucking great, and being a man is often a miserable experience.

The grass isn’t greener on the oppressor side of the fence.

and that no, sex work isn’t work, it’s rape and human trafficking, and that nude photos aren’t empowering, and to make a sharp exit from any man who pings your nonce radar, and tell at least one other woman about him.

Helleofabore · 09/10/2022 13:18

mforstater.medium.com/what-being-worthy-of-respect-in-a-democratic-society-means-b611a07cd925

Just adding Maya’s article here.

‘There are tensions here that need to be talked about, and there are also areas where it is clear that there are common concerns between strange bedfellows:’

’If we want to speak out on the issue of Drag Queen Story Hour, we will find ourselves sharing concerns with traditionalists and reactionaries.’

’If we want to speak out on the conversion-therapy ban, or on gender ideology in sex education classes we will find ourselves sharing concerns with religious conservatives.’

’If we want to speak out on freedom of expression, we will find ourselves sharing concerns with racists, anti-abortionists and pornographers.’

Those who want to silence us would like us to be vulnerable to shame and guilt-by-association, and to tread on eggshells around these topics, avoid them all together or become tied up in purity spirals.’

Now imagine if Maya’s case never happened because women who deem her just as ‘problematic’ as KJK because Maya is willing to speak at an event where a group deemed ‘beyond the pale’ was also involved didn’t support her.

Also, imagine if women were so pressured to choose to stay ‘pure’ chose not to accept funds from the wider group willing to help.

Maybe it is just as well this divisiveness has been shown up now rather than 2-3 years ago. But the divisiveness is there for all to see now. Maya even included a tweet from one of those Brighton (please do correct me if I am wrong) feminists pressuring her to effectively tell KJK that she, KJK, was ‘sinning’ again. ‘I hope you will insist on some effort being made to exclude these ppl from future events before agreeing to speak’….

Politely worded, but a demand none the less.

AutumnLeavesAreABugger · 10/10/2022 00:41

But it is the truth - "It would be great to recognise and acknowledge the truth that women have been oppressed in all cultures, the whole world over, all down through all of time, by men."

Because that is truth. Women and girls have been oppressed by men, and still are oppressed, in all cultures, the whole world over, down through all of time."

"Oppressed by men, and men's greater propensity and capability for violence against women." Yes. And remains so.

You don't get to castigate me for being a victim of male violence, because I'm a victim of male violence, and me pointing out that I'm a victim of male violence. You don't get to tell me to shut up about that.

Women have a long, long, long history of having to live with male violence. Id's prefer to tell girls and women the truth about male violence, rather than tell us to shut up. We are at the mercy of male violence. Historical and contemporary fact.

beastlyslumber · 10/10/2022 08:03

No one's telling you to shut up. Just saying that it's not true that women = victims. That society is more complex than oppressor/victim.

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