sarah ditum on Posie parker

[narcymum]

Just saw a tweet where she calls PP a 'poundshop marine le Pen'
WTF! why are women who are supposedly in this fight together actively trying to sabotage another woman's activism?
Can we not move away from this schoolyard shit?

Yes. Protect women's rights, safeguard children.

Then we can take on the other things.

Can you give us the priority list then? What comes first and where does the greatest medical scandal of our age rank in importance to you?

No, I'm not going to. TBH I'm getting a sense that 'no debate' is the current flavour of the month with some posters here and I'm also detecting a rather religious frenzy amongst some.

I've been an active feminist since my late teens, a span of many decades. I've read the books (often as they were published), been on the marches, taught the subject and made a range of personal and professional decisions based on my feminism (as I have on other ideological and personal commitments, including socialism). I'm not going to answer to you or anyone else.

It’s the priority to KJK, and to me as it happens, as opposed to making sure everyone campaigning for this is pure enough being prioritised first.

It reads to me rather like you are not 'pure enough' unless it is a priority.

OK. I never did like church.

Leading people in social and political movements have been murdered by people on their own side in the past, so I think KJK can handle a bit of heat on Twitter.

I don't agree on her views about putting abortion to the side, or whatever it was she said, it's hard to tell these days when everything is taken completely out of context and used against someone. Nor do I really want to see this movement cosying up to right wing blokes who clearly hate women but have seen a niche they can fill.

But my god, KJK has done some sterling work in exposing gender ideology and the nasty people involved in it, in recent times. Like someone else said, we need her as much as we need the likes of Maya and Allison and Jo, I think everyone has a role to play to appeal to different demographics, uncover different aspects of what's going on, bring sunlight to the issue in their own way.

Well you read that wrong. My point, and that of KJK is that the topic itself is the priority, not the purity of the person fighting for it. You don’t think she’s good enough because she hasn’t focussed on social welfare issues, so she can’t be good enough to focus on this. I think it doesn’t matter what she has or hasn’t focussed on before, the priority is the issue in hand - sterilising children - not the purity of the person fighting it.

I don’t care what else you fight for or whether I agree with you on other topics. To me, you’re an ally in this fight. I will not dismiss you if I was to find out you are polar opposite to me on another thing. I also don’t care if you want to prioritise other issues affecting women and girls over this. However I do object to being told what I am supposed to prioritise. You seem to be determined to set a benchmark for others which they must achieve before they’re worthy of agreement. It’s not me saying “no debate”.

If women aren't thought to objectively exist, then we eventually lose all the rights we've fought for anyway, including abortion.

Everything starts with free speech and the ability to speak objective truths. If you don't have that, everything else you think you have is built on sand.

And for others saying that WPUK are needed for their policy work...I dont get it. Their own side won't even speak to them, never mind listen to them and take their concerns on board.

And WPUk won't speak to the government!

It's insane.

This year the Conservative Government and EHRC have set in motion enough change to collapse the gender identity house of cards in the coming months.

They listened to everyone.

It must be a bit galling for Labour women to still be arguing with their own party on this over slivers of policy whilst we now have a PM and Cabinet that speak plainly on the fundamentals of this.

You don’t think she’s good enough because she hasn’t focussed on social welfare issues, so she can’t be good enough to focus on this.

Sorry - please tell me where I said this?

"I'm getting a sense that 'no debate' is the current flavour of the month with some posters here"

And

"I'm not going to answer to you or anyone else."

🤔

We need to start ignoring feminists that try the purity circle route.

In case it needs explaining, Lovelyrice, 'no debate' or 'not debating' is very different from refusing to answer a question about one's own political or personal agenda.

We need to start ignoring feminists that try the purity circle route.

Oh good! I'll keep on my merry way supporting the left then :)

This is why I hate the word 'allies': it suggests an unquestioning commitment to follow regardless. 'Allies' are the second class people who don't belong in the chosen group but are not quite as bad as the 'others'.

I am no one's ally. I support people on points I agree with, will listen to their arguments and will profoundly disagree on other points. My understanding is PP does not call herself a feminist and I can see why - to do so is to invite irrelevant arguments which does nothing to address her cause.

Posie is courageously putting herself directly on the line on this issue, and prepared to say things that need saying that too many people won't, or can't say, or who in trying to look reasonable fudge.

She went to the swim meet in the USA and was a lone voice shouting 'he's a man'.
Give the woman a bloody medal just for that as far as I'm concerned.

This excellent point Helen Joyce made in that article made me laugh: most people are not socialist feminists.
No shit 🤣.

The discussions on here about how women shouldn't associate with the right etc also make me laugh.

Most people and most women are not feminist socialists. You do know that don't you?

If you are a feminist socialist you are a tiny minority of the general population and their political viewpoint.

This issue transcends politics. It's about reality, it's about language to express that reality, how that is essential for women, and it's about protecting children.
And the people who can agree on that are going to range from the furthest right to the nuttiest left (who are both equally as dangerous) because they are actually some core deep principles that speak to everyone.

Every thing beyond that you can return to debating your politics.

And I've reached a point where I disregard the terms fascist and far right 95% of the time now anyway due to the overuse by the left. (See baby shouting for example).
It just usually means right. Or not identity politics pure .

And people on the right also care about reality, the language to talk freely about it, and protecting children.

The delusion this should be an exclusive socialist feminist movement genuinely makes me laugh at its naval gazing naivety.

But you were saying other issues need to be focussed on. Like what? Why do you want to police what people put first in their lives?

You've done this on multiple Posie threads Spartacus. Can you answer some simple questions:

The Catholic Church in Australia has stopped gender ideology being ingrained in its schools. Regardless of the history of the Catholic Church, do you think this is objectively a good thing? Yes or no.

KJK says males should be kept out of women’s spaces and children should not be sterilised or have their breasts removed. Regardless of her views of anything else, do you agree with her on this? Yes or no.

'Allies' are the second class people who don't belong in the chosen group but are not quite as bad as the 'others'.
I disagree. Allies are a group with a different identity or focus, who's views on one subject may align with ours.
If their views on other subjects are radically opposed to ours its a dilemma.

For me, there is no 'purity' test, just a human rights test. If your group is attempting to remove the human rights of other people, you aren't an ally to women; and that's why I cannot ally myself with the Right.

Why do you want to police what people put first in their lives?

Pot, kettle, black!

Is it though?

Is it though?

Yes.

Well said.

As a phenomenon, I completely understand why TRAs don't like her. She is effective in publicising the issue. But other women fighting for the same outcome? I don't really get it.

It is not women who dont like her, but a specific breed of leftwing women who are worried about the 'optics', about rightwing deplorables - fascists, racists, islamophobes, and yes, transphobes- tainting the cause. Some of these women have been kicked to the kerb by their lefty brethren and found space for expression on deplorable media (the torygraph, the the dailyfail, Spectator, GB news, Fox etc) but it sticks in their craw and theu all dream of being truimphant returns to the Guardian and NYT. When the cause succeeds of course. Well the cause will not succeed without masses of women and men understanding this issue. Without masses of political support which at the moment comes only from Rightwing parties because the left is actively anti-women, authoritarian and caught in a death purity spiral. Posey Parker irritates me sometimes - there is a fair bit of ego to the rather simplistic catchphrase "I never lose!" but she is miles ahead in likeability and effective campaigning compared to Bidel or the WPUK gang. I wonder who they will take down after Posey? Helen Joyce? Maya Forstator? They were all there in Brighton. They may have taken selfies with the wrong sort of people , heavens, pass me my smelling salts.

I admire Posey for having the temerity to speak about the Pakistani grooming scandals - thousands of victims - that is effectively the greatest child and women's scandal to hit the UK but practically no leftwing women speak out about it. That space has been ceded to the right. The left is a disgrace and I regret having wasted most of my life on that side of the fence. That doesnt mean the right isnt a menace - but I know how to fight and defeat the right, having a lifetime of experience doing so. FWIW, I now vote based on issues and individual candidates, not party affiliation.

I don’t think you read my post properly:

I also don’t care if you want to prioritise other issues affecting women and girls over this. However I do object to being told what I am supposed to prioritise.

What does allying with the right actually mean??

Just acknowledging you agree with them on this issue?

Talking to them about the fact you agree on this issue?

Talking to people they also talk to about the issue you agree on?

Talking on the same platform about the issue you agree on?

Campaigning with them on the issue you agree on?

Some people need to grow up about the concept of 'allying'

If you agree with some one and you should be able to talk about that openly.

No one is asking you to then campaign for the Tory party.

I think I read it exactly correctly NBC!

You know what I love about this movement?

When it unites all women, and when it's about more than politics, I love the photos of women from across the political divides coming together for something bigger than that.
Especially when it's women uniting to protect children. It actually makes me emotional.

But then I'm an old softie.