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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carly-May Kavanagh

1000 replies

NitroNine · 23/09/2022 00:46

There are rumours circulating on Twitter that Carly-May Kavanagh (the one who screams at babies: Daily Mail) has, despite her “apology” been suspended from the Labour Party. Presumably such a suspension would have an impact on her job as Lloyd Russell-Moyle‘s head of policy?

Apparently if she is suspended it [probably] won’t be made public. Given the reason for her [potential] suspension; if Labour actually do take action, you’d think they’d want to reassure people that they expect their members to uphold certain standards. I mean, “not screaming abuse at infants” is less upholding a standard than it is failing to trip over pebbles of basic decency…

Clearly one cannot put too much weight into Random Person Says Unevidenced Thing. However, it would be a foolish rumour to start without cause, so I thought it was worth starting a thread here to see if there are developments to follow.

Should Kavanagh face consequences for her behaviour it will be a watershed moment: Labour acknowledging women have rights all their own, including the rights to assemble & to speak on issues of concern to them, such as their need for single sex provisions.

OP posts:
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19
TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:01

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 12:25

No. it is absolutely not understandable in any way to targetly scream at a baby or that close to a baby. Sorry. She can be understandably fired up and passionately yelling but not directly at people and not in the way she did.

This is all getting silly.

CMK acted like a twat and she's paying the price. But she didn't harm the baby or anyone else.
Some people on here want to make this small gross incident into a horrific assault. It wasn't.

I've never shouted at people in public or called a baby or anyone else a fascist, but I can at least imagine the self righteous state of beleiving that I'm in the presence of real evil fascists that might in the moment lead me to act in a way I later regretted.

Maybe I just have a good imagination or maybe I'm just aware of my potential for being a twat but I can understand how it happened.

but I can at least imagine the self righteous state of beleiving that I'm in the presence of real evil fascists that might in the moment lead me to act in a way I later regretted.

What's a "real evil fascist" ?

I don't support BLM (the version which opposes carceral punishment and capitalism)

I vote Conservative, I support the Union and oppose Scottish separatism- any one of those is enough to be labelled "fascist" by some of the self- righteous left.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:13

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 12:56

Ah @SapphosRock we probably disagree with a lot politically but we've united on the discovery of our shared humanity of the potential to be a twat 😁.

You've both certainly got the ability to minimise what was vile and indefensible behaviour. Oh yes, you've said something along the lines of " nobody is defending screaming at a baby"

and then minimised it by , "oh never mind, baby wasn't harmed and it's just being a twat"

"twat" , despite what it's literal meaning is, is one the mildest insults around.

Datun · 25/09/2022 13:17

SapphosRock

Do you have any problem with the actual content of Posie's campaigning?

FrippEnos · 25/09/2022 13:28

Has the left reset the definition of racism?

Because if we go by their definition of racism what privilege and power does Andy Ngo have

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 13:32

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:13

You've both certainly got the ability to minimise what was vile and indefensible behaviour. Oh yes, you've said something along the lines of " nobody is defending screaming at a baby"

and then minimised it by , "oh never mind, baby wasn't harmed and it's just being a twat"

"twat" , despite what it's literal meaning is, is one the mildest insults around.

I was enagining in imagination of what leads people to do bad things.

I find trying to think about the mindset that allows people to act in bad ways is more productive than just repeatedly stating how bad and wrong they are when that's already been agreed,

And yes awareness of my own flaws makes me more able to engage in this imagination exercise and gives me some compassion even with peopl who sometimes behave badly.

And for me 'twattish' decsribes her behaviour. It's gross and unaccptable but there are far worse things which I'd save far worse descriptors for.

FOJN · 25/09/2022 13:35

SapphosRock · 25/09/2022 12:50

If the self appointed bosses of feminism force women to make a choice they may be surprised by the outcome.

Surely choosing either SFW or socialist feminism is better than forced teaming?

The ideologies are so fundamentally different that it makes sense to pick a side.

Most posters here think both approaches have value and are important; mutual respect is not forced teaming. KJK does not go out of her way to tear down feminists, she just gets on with doing her thing. Left wing feminists on the other hand can't resist the opportunity to criticise KJK. Promoting division does not help women at all. Perhaps left wing feminists could show some restraint or use their words to articulate their concerns rather than taking cheap shots and making shit up by taking everything KJK does out of context.

I'd be very surprised if CMK doesn't describe herself as a left wing feminist. I probably would have done too until very recently but I clearly have very little in common with a woman who calls a baby a fascist.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:36

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:13

You've both certainly got the ability to minimise what was vile and indefensible behaviour. Oh yes, you've said something along the lines of " nobody is defending screaming at a baby"

and then minimised it by , "oh never mind, baby wasn't harmed and it's just being a twat"

"twat" , despite what it's literal meaning is, is one the mildest insults around.

"twat" , despite what its literal meaning is, is one the mildest insults around.

Sorry autocucumber generated a horrific greengrocer's apostrophe. Although I find it interesting in the apologia for Kavanagh that her defenders opt for that very mild word to describe Kavanagh rather than the far stronger and far more pejorative word which literally means the same.

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:39

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 13:32

I was enagining in imagination of what leads people to do bad things.

I find trying to think about the mindset that allows people to act in bad ways is more productive than just repeatedly stating how bad and wrong they are when that's already been agreed,

And yes awareness of my own flaws makes me more able to engage in this imagination exercise and gives me some compassion even with peopl who sometimes behave badly.

And for me 'twattish' decsribes her behaviour. It's gross and unaccptable but there are far worse things which I'd save far worse descriptors for.

Your minimisation of Kavanagh's behaviour is breathtaking.

Datun · 25/09/2022 13:42

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 13:32

I was enagining in imagination of what leads people to do bad things.

I find trying to think about the mindset that allows people to act in bad ways is more productive than just repeatedly stating how bad and wrong they are when that's already been agreed,

And yes awareness of my own flaws makes me more able to engage in this imagination exercise and gives me some compassion even with peopl who sometimes behave badly.

And for me 'twattish' decsribes her behaviour. It's gross and unaccptable but there are far worse things which I'd save far worse descriptors for.

The woman is fuming about something or other. And viewed that situation as a way to vent her spleen. On someone she has manufactured outrage over, in order to justify it.

The other woman had the look that many girls will recognise from childhood bullying at school. The smirking, excited, 'right this is where we start to enjoy ourselves' kind of look.

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 13:46

TheLassWiADelicateAir · 25/09/2022 13:39

Your minimisation of Kavanagh's behaviour is breathtaking.

What??!!
😂😂😂

Datun · 25/09/2022 13:47

I wonder if they deliberately picked a man. A lot of the women there are seasoned over this sort of thing. They will have all the answers at their fingertips, and all the knowledge to combat confrontation in no uncertain terms.

I wonder if they viewed him (and his baby), as an easy target.

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 13:55

Datun · 25/09/2022 13:42

The woman is fuming about something or other. And viewed that situation as a way to vent her spleen. On someone she has manufactured outrage over, in order to justify it.

The other woman had the look that many girls will recognise from childhood bullying at school. The smirking, excited, 'right this is where we start to enjoy ourselves' kind of look.

Yes humans are very flawed and have all sorts of unconscious and misguided reasons that allow them to behave badly.

If anyone thinks they are immune to this then I'd be more worried about them than the person making mistakes and learning how control themselves tbh.

Anger and power together are very dangerous.

I'm going to bow out now as I seem to being positioned as saying her behaviour was justifiable, which I haven't but I do think it's unedrstandable. As all behaviour is.

If you don't appreciate the difference between these then I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

Also I was uncomforatble with Sapphos' position as a single poster with multiple challengers, I wanted to highlight that I understood that particular point she was making.

IcakethereforeIam · 25/09/2022 14:03

That's what confuses me about her non-apology and some of the posts on this thread, she doesn't look angry or upset in the slightest. Completely the opposite, she seems very composed, she's having a high old time.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2022 14:03

And for me 'twattish' decsribes her behaviour. It's gross and unaccptable

The reason it got so much attention around the world is that it's grotesquely twattish to shout at babies that they are fascists because their parents are at an event for people who understand what biological sex is. Not just everyday twattish. Lots of people there were twats. Twats are everywhere. The optics were appalling.

SapphosRock · 25/09/2022 14:04

Datun · 25/09/2022 13:17

SapphosRock

Do you have any problem with the actual content of Posie's campaigning?

I wasn't keen on her idea of telling men in America with guns to start using women's toilets.

Her interview with James Max on Talk Radio was brilliant.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/09/2022 14:08

If you don't appreciate the difference between these

It was an extremely, singularly stupid thing to do that massively backfired on her, as it was probably always going to in such a public arena. So yes we can understand that many people do stupid things, yes. And there are always things which people will recoil from more than if you did something worse. I don't really see what your point is, to be honest,

Datun · 25/09/2022 14:08

SapphosRock · 25/09/2022 14:04

I wasn't keen on her idea of telling men in America with guns to start using women's toilets.

Her interview with James Max on Talk Radio was brilliant.

We will disagree about the context of that comment.

But interesting that you picked it out.

I'm asking if you disagree with the content of her overall campaigning?

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/09/2022 14:09

Also I was uncomforatble with Sapphos' position as a single poster with multiple challengers, I wanted to highlight that I understood that particular point she was making

I understand her point, i just don’t agree

i can be an awful person at times and i can absolutely see potentially yelling at someone i think is a fascist or racist or something depending on the situation, i just can’t see me doing it to a baby…..or a puppy

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 25/09/2022 14:11

And to be fair i pretty much said that in my first post on here

i can understand emotions running high

Signalbox · 25/09/2022 14:17

MalagaNights · 25/09/2022 13:55

Yes humans are very flawed and have all sorts of unconscious and misguided reasons that allow them to behave badly.

If anyone thinks they are immune to this then I'd be more worried about them than the person making mistakes and learning how control themselves tbh.

Anger and power together are very dangerous.

I'm going to bow out now as I seem to being positioned as saying her behaviour was justifiable, which I haven't but I do think it's unedrstandable. As all behaviour is.

If you don't appreciate the difference between these then I don't think we're going to get anywhere.

Also I was uncomforatble with Sapphos' position as a single poster with multiple challengers, I wanted to highlight that I understood that particular point she was making.

As one of the multiple challengers I understand where you are coming from. I’m struggling to understand Sapphos’ position and genuinely attempting to get my head around it. I also see CMKs behaviour as bad but I’d dispute that she was “screaming” at him (which is a term I’ve seen used and has the effect of making the situation seem worse than it is). Sometimes the behaviour that is so annoying when TRAs do it is replicated on the GC side and it’s always more difficult to dispute the facts when it’s your own side’s version of events that you are challenging.

TheClogLady · 25/09/2022 14:18

IcakethereforeIam · 25/09/2022 14:03

That's what confuses me about her non-apology and some of the posts on this thread, she doesn't look angry or upset in the slightest. Completely the opposite, she seems very composed, she's having a high old time.

Agree. She looks like she’s getting giddy on her unshakeable belief that she, being a lovely Labour person, is always on the right side of history and therefore nothing she does is wrong, not even calling a BABY a fascist.

Which is perhaps significantly more disturbing than feeling a bit scared or overwhelmed in a crowd and thus doing whatever the crowd does (including shouty anger) out of self preservation.

Carly-May Kavanagh was never in any danger from Posie or any of the speakers nor the SFW supporters and she knew it.

Fallingirl · 25/09/2022 14:51

With the rather, shall we say, imaginative accusation levelled at Posie here and elsewhere, I have been reminded of this tale by Hans Christian Andersen: It’s Quite True!

It's a dreadful story!" said a hen, and she said it in a part of town, too, where it had not taken place. "It's a dreadful story to happen in a henhouse. I'm afraid to sleep alone tonight; it's a good thing there are many of us on the perch!" And then she told a story that made the feathers of the other hens stand on end and the rooster's comb fall. It's quite true!

But we will begin at the beginning and tell what had happened in a henhouse at the other end of town.

The sun went down, and the hens flew up. One of them was a white-feathered and short-limbed hen who laid her eggs according to the regulations and who was a respectable hen in every way. As she settled herself on the perch, she plucked herself with her beak, and a tiny feather came out.

"There it goes," she said. "No doubt the more I pluck, the more beautiful I will get." But she said it only in fun, for she was considered the jolliest among the hens, although, as we've said before, most respectable. Then she fell asleep.

There was darkness all around, and the hens sat closely together. But the hen that sat closest to the white hen was not asleep; she had heard and had not heard, as one should do in this world, if one wishes to live in peace. But still she couldn't resist telling it to her nearest neighbor.

"Did you hear what was said? Well, I don't want to mention any names, but there is a hen here who intends to pluck out all her feathers just to make herself look well. If I were a rooster, I would despise her."

Right above the hens lived a mother owl with a father owl and all her little owls. They had sharp ears in that family, and they all heard every word that their neighbor hen had said. They all rolled their eyes, and the mother owl flapped her wings and said; "Don't listen to it. But I suppose you all heard what was said. I heard it with my own ears, and one must hear a great deal before they fall off. One of the hens has so completely forgotten what is becoming conduct to a hen that she plucks out all her feathers, while the rooster watches her."

"Little pitchers have long ears," said the father owl. "Children shouldn't hear such talk."

"I must tell it to the owl across the road," said the mother owl. "She is such a respectable owl!" And away flew Mamma.

"Hoo-whoo! Hoo-whoo!" they both hooted to the pigeons in the pigeon house across the road. "Have you heard it? Have you heard it? Hoo-whoo! There is a hen who has plucked out all her feathers just to please the rooster. She must be freezing to death; that is, if she isn't dead already. Hoo-whoo! Hoo-whoo!"

"Where? Where?" cooed the pigeons.

"In the yard across the way. I have as good as seen it myself. It is almost not a proper story to tell, but it's quite true!"

"True, true, every word of it," said the pigeons, and cooed down into their poultry yard. "There is a hen, and some say there are two hens, who have plucked out all their feathers in order to look different from the rest and to attract the attention of the rooster."

"Wake up! Wake up!" crowed the rooster, and flew up on the fence. He was still half asleep, but he crowed just the same. "Three hens have died of a broken heart, all for the sake of a rooster, and they have plucked all their feathers out! It's a dreadful story, but I will not keep it to myself. Tell it everywhere!"

"Tell it everywhere!" shrieked the bats; and the hens clucked and the roosters crowed. "Tell it everywhere!"

And so the story traveled from henhouse to henhouse until at last it was carried back to the very same place from where it had really started.

"There are five hens," now ran the tale, "who all have plucked out all their feathers to show which of them had lost the most weight through unhappy love for their rooster. And then they pecked at each other till they bled and all five dropped dead, to the shame and disgrace of their families, and to the great loss of their owner."

And the hen who had lost the little loose feather naturally didn't recognize her own story; and as she was a respectable hen, she said, "I despise such hens, but there are many of that kind! Such stories should not be hushed up, and I'll do my best to get the story into the newspapers. Then it will be known all over the country; that will serve those hens right, and their families, too." And it got to the newspapers, and it was printed. And it is quite true. One little feather may grow till it becomes five hens.

andersen.sdu.dk/vaerk/hersholt/ItsQuiteTrue.html

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 25/09/2022 15:37

Carly-May Kavanagh was never in any danger from Posie or any of the speakers nor the SFW supporters and she knew it.

If CMK believes that women prisoners should be locked up with rapists - which is the logical outcome of her views if she’s on the side of the TRAs - then she’s on the side of violent misogyny, & I hope she realises that sooner rather than later.

Helleofabore · 25/09/2022 16:13

SapphosRock · 25/09/2022 14:04

I wasn't keen on her idea of telling men in America with guns to start using women's toilets.

Her interview with James Max on Talk Radio was brilliant.

Seriously. Can you just go and listen to the videos that you seem so keen on using to highlight and confirm the sins that your mate has published.

if you even bothered to read the transcript that your link led to it is actually clear she wasn’t asking for men with guns to go into the female toilets.

She was saying, those men that ‘carry’ to defend their family might use the loophole created by these policies to go into the female toilets without bothering to dress as a ‘woman’ and show just how ridiculous this loop hole is.

It really feels like you take in only the regurgitated bad faith takes rather than you reading and listening to the original sources to form your own opinions.

Helleofabore · 25/09/2022 16:17

By the way, I don’t support males entering female single sex spaces in this way. And as said, this backfired on her and people genrerally acknowledge it as a misstep, but please at least get the accusation right.

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