Carly-May Kavanagh

[NitroNine]

There are rumours circulating on Twitter that Carly-May Kavanagh (the one who screams at babies: Daily Mail) has, despite her “apology” been suspended from the Labour Party. Presumably such a suspension would have an impact on her job as Lloyd Russell-Moyle‘s head of policy?

Apparently if she is suspended it [probably] won’t be made public. Given the reason for her [potential] suspension; if Labour actually do take action, you’d think they’d want to reassure people that they expect their members to uphold certain standards. I mean, “not screaming abuse at infants” is less upholding a standard than it is failing to trip over pebbles of basic decency…

Clearly one cannot put too much weight into Random Person Says Unevidenced Thing. However, it would be a foolish rumour to start without cause, so I thought it was worth starting a thread here to see if there are developments to follow.

Should Kavanagh face consequences for her behaviour it will be a watershed moment: Labour acknowledging women have rights all their own, including the rights to assemble & to speak on issues of concern to them, such as their need for single sex provisions.

Is this real? Does anyone have a link? -and when you say “alongside”, do you mean there is a site that includes videos of TR as well as showing speeches by feminists?

I assume it's real. Apparently some men who were there are part of a far right organisation, they filmed and streamed the event. I can't verify any of this, as I don't know who they were or any more info.

I did see and speak with lots of women who have been to many of Posie's events.

None of us are apologising for people we don't know turning up at a public event.

Has any TRA apologised for the aggression shown towards women?

If life-long feminists have important stuff to say, they could have turned up to say it.

Oh shit that’s Spiked have I just aligned myself to something wicked.

No, but Sappho's framing of this has led you to think that. Interesting, isn't it?

It's interesting to see this tactic work in real time on this very thread!

This is pathetic.

We get it, Posie didn't ask permission to go to Brighton.

You are all miserable that the Brighton gang have zero impact on Brighton's feminist TRAs and it shows when these events happen.

That was what #fuckoffPosie was about, you would much rather no one live streamed Brighton's actual feminists in all their baby shouting and glitter throwing glory, never mind a couple of irrelevant woodwork fans.

Because it shows place up as the silly clown world it is instead of the cutting edge of feminism you imagine yourselves to be.

*while insisting women who caught a whiff of some fascist bloke's cologne without knowing who he might have been, must 'say the words' or be deemed irretrievably unclean for ever more?"

Hilarious 😂

Perhaps he was dressed in black and wearing a mask like a....oh, what's the word.

I liked that Spiked article, and I'll tell you for nothing, it's not the first one I've read and enjoyed. Usually through following links from MN. And I'm not sorry about it. If I'd been at SFW on Sunday, I couldn't give a shiny shit if I'd turned up on a HoO YouTube. I know for a fact I wouldn't have been yelling at a baby or doing anything else I'd've been ashamed of.

This reminds me slightly of the pile ons tras initiate when one of there own isn't pure enough (are they still yelling at Jamila Jamil?). It's just a matter of degree, I like to think we can be better than that.

@SapphosRock I don't wish to sound patronising, but here goes. I admire you for changing your thinking like you apparently have. I expect it didn't come without cost to you. I think it's useful to have a range of views so MN FWR doesn't become too echo chambery-y-y-y. Even if it just helps to hone the edges of the arguments.

Genuine question, what has Posie achieved from the Brighton event?

I don’t think she’s changed her thinking at all, she comes across as someone who still believes that she just knows best, is doing whatever today’s belief system is better than everyone else, and is willing to be as dishonest as she needs to be to sneer at others.

And again, does ‘critique’ mean what the website you posted did?

Is that the type of critique you feel is acceptable?

Are you, or are you not, meaning that degree of sin listing? Have I missed you saying otherwise?

She has shown that women are absolutely correct when they say that your lot won’t let them speak.

Your claims to support women have been shown to be completely false, you still just support your tribe, and will say whatever it takes to denounce those in the out-group.

I agree that it’s unfortunate, because it can be used as leverage by the TRA in their ongoing smear campaign that seeks to demonise perfectly ordinary women and their legally protected view as fascists.

i disagree that women should be cowed and apologetic because disingenuous opponents do disingenuous things.

technically all the women involved can probably get those videos removed using copyright strikes - they own their speeches and broadcasting them in their entirety without permission probably doesn’t count as ‘fair use’ - however there is nothing much that could be done if they were to take down their own stream and instead reshare Posie’s, so probably a pointless endeavour.

More importantly, we don’t want take down requests to become the norm because the same mechanism will be used against US. Freedom of speech has to be universal and the ability to reshare and comment on info found elsewhere in the public domain is really bloody import in the battle to protect Women’s rights.

If any woman experiences any sort of repercussion (eg work suspension) because her speech has been shared by some random blokes she doesn’t like, agree with, or even recognise from Adam then we tackle that collectively and through the courts. Crowdfunded lawfare is the only sane way forward.

Nigel Farage is a nasty little prick, but Andrew Doyle is on the same TV channel and I really like him and probably agree with around 95% of his views.

Should Andrew Doyle be shunned because he (probably) sits in the same make up chair as Farage before going on air?

That would be daft wouldn’t it?

So why does being shared on the same teeny circulation blog as Tommy Robinson matter?

Once something is in the public domain, it’s really tough titty on what happens next, it can be clipped and cut and dubbed over and commented on by streamers and YouTubers and there is really fuck all any of us can do about it so it’s totally unrealistic to expect women (including Posie) to be able to control firstly the public space (of the park) and secondly, the internet in a way that almost no one, even the silicone valley moguls can really get a handle on (and boy do they want to).

the alternative is a grooming gangs type scenario - not speaking out (for women and girls) for fear of what you say being used in someone else’s (racist) political agenda.

and look at how well that turned out!

Have you missed the fact Baby Fascist Bully went viral?

Have you missed the arrests made? Showing the bullies that when they threaten, and follow through with threats to disrupt by 'any means necessary' including throwing smoke bombs & glitter (so breaking the law), they'll face consequences?

The numbers of women who turned up, in Brighton of all places, and stood firm & stared down the bullies, speaking up too. That's a huge positive.

I'm pretty sure women who know about this stuff were like the groups I'm part of in being really concerned about what might happen. We were all cautiously supportive of SFW but genuinely worried about how it would unfold - because Brighton.

And the outcome, despite all the claims to the contrary, was massively successful & positive given our worst fears.

And yet, all of that has been ignored while some left wing feminists get more and more hyperbolic about 2 random blokes that antifa failed to pause their abuse/harassment/intimidation of women to have the unique experience of actually challenging actual fascists.

I guess your view of what PP achieved depends very much on whether her success rankles or not.

Unfortunately she's shown that the academic feminists are more keen to criticise her than the angry protest against her.

She's shown they won't take advantage of a platform to speak to (extra)ordinary women when given the chance.

She's shown that TRAs in Brighton, mostly angry young men, want to shut women up.

She's provided yet another opportunity for women to network in person.

Hang on...

Are you saying that if a far right organisation like, I dunno, the KKK, records me standing in the street saying, "Rain is wet, the sky is blue, and I long for the days when men were real men, women were real women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were real small furry creatures from alpha Centauri!", then everyone will think I'm a neonazi and I might lose my job?

No? Phew!

Women telling their stories when others want to silence them is a political act.

The personal is still political.

I'm pretty sure women who know about this stuff were like the groups I'm part of in being really concerned about what might happen. We were all cautiously supportive of SFW but genuinely worried about how it would unfold - because Brighton.

And the outcome, despite all the claims to the contrary, was massively successful & positive given our worst fears.

And yet, all of that has been ignored while some left wing feminists get more and more hyperbolic about 2 random blokes that antifa failed to pause their abuse/harassment/intimidation of women to have the unique experience of actually challenging actual fascists.

I guess your view of what PP achieved depends very much on whether her success rankles or not.

This. It's actually quite ridiculous that some posters think this event wasn't a win for KJK. I guess that's the bubble.

And those thinking this seem to fall into two distinct groups. Trans Rights Activists and @SapphosRock who definitely isn’t a TRA playing at not being one, and is definitely just a GC feminist who argues like them and agrees with them on a lot if things.

the alternative is a grooming gangs type scenario - not speaking out (for women and girls) for fear of what you say being used in someone else’s (racist) political agenda.

Exactly.

No.

This is such a weak argument. Even someone having their photo taken while standing and talking to a ‘problematic’ person does not mean that they are aligned. Or we are all screwed because world leaders have photos taken all the time with each other.

It is absolutist thinking that would immediately draw that conclusion. And we already know which groups have absolutist thinking. So why would it be a surprise if they were to make irrational, and illlogical claims based on falsity.

And it is minimising the current era. Anyone. Absolutely anyone can repost speeches onto their channel. There is nothing to stop this really. They can just snip it and ‘critique’ it- and hey presto! A woman’s speech is forever entwined with that person.

This line of thought really does seem to be completely dishonest. And does that mean that if some
feminists sit on a panel and agree with some things another ‘problematic’ panelist says, that they are to be denounced.

It is ‘no debate’. Again. This time it is feminists not extrapolating out where this then finishes. The current general ‘she opened women up to their speeches being platformed by far right’ is meaningless in this era of digital media. It really is.

I am all for discussing what KJK gets wrong. I don’t think she gets everything right.

But there is a huge gap between discussion (with some very paltry answers) and denouncing her for a list of sins plus a very flimsy ‘there were men filming’ excuse that seems to be retrofitted after the fact.

What concerns me, is that the censuring and hypocrisy that is happening with people who declare themselves to be moral guides and leaders of movements.

I am sorry but I have to ask again ‘specifically’ what on that listing of KJK’s sins I listed upthread do you fully support the Brighton feminists for calling out? Any? all?

Because it seems that list really was rather confused. Because on one hand who ever created that list fully approves of other women being potentially exploited for their eggs (either emotionally, or financially) ? And other actions that I think, if I was in that feminist group, I would be profoundly uncomfortable not being able to discuss openly.

So, any confirmation on whether you are comfortable with that list being on that web site you posted us to?

Posie has shown that women in the 21st century are targeted, by many people, including those who work for our members of parliament, for speaking about the destruction of their rights. She's also giving the very women whose rights have been targeted, the opportunity to tell everyone exactly how.

Plus she is showing up the people who oppose this as fricken idiots with no argument.

But, then again, had Benito Mussolini been told that fascism was alive and well in the United Kingdom of the 21st century, and had then been shown this man and his baby as proof, I think he would have felt he had been the butt of a cruel joke.

Honestly, anyone who can frame what happened at that talk as people 'playing into posie's hands,' as if she's the architect of it, is not posting in good faith.

I think, for very many women, even those who don't agree with everything Posie says and does, the attacks on her just come across as inexplicably personal.

We know the GC women who now appear alongside Tommy Robinson on a fascist website are not fascists. Other people may now believe them to be.

Eh? Only if you know them personally, happen to watch it, whilst having it on mute, and are a bit silly.

ImNotGreta

Actually, I support Sapphos right to criticise anyone. But I also support my own right to ask questions of anyone criticising someone and to analyse their criticism. I don’t think Sappho is a TRA extremist but you are right that some tactics are being used by feminists at the moment that are the same tactics. Of course they are. Extreme TRAs didn’t invent them. They are not that clever.

The argument about feminists being on a ‘channel’ or website of the far right is becoming more and more ridiculous.

Any woman speaking on any media, be it news, YouTube, at a conference, may appear on that website. Can be forever linked. It only takes a snapshot even.

The only solution is to go back to meeting in secret and no woman ever speaking again using media.

That those using this argument cannot see the falseness behind this is the problem. We are supposed to be the logical and reasoned group, here.

Honestly, anyone who can frame what happened at that talk as people 'playing into posie's hands,' as if she's the architect of it, is not posting in good faith.

I think, for very many women, even those who don't agree with everything Posie says and does, the attacks on her just come across as inexplicably personal.

Yes Datun. This has been bonkers. Just bonkers.