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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Carly-May Kavanagh

1000 replies

NitroNine · 23/09/2022 00:46

There are rumours circulating on Twitter that Carly-May Kavanagh (the one who screams at babies: Daily Mail) has, despite her “apology” been suspended from the Labour Party. Presumably such a suspension would have an impact on her job as Lloyd Russell-Moyle‘s head of policy?

Apparently if she is suspended it [probably] won’t be made public. Given the reason for her [potential] suspension; if Labour actually do take action, you’d think they’d want to reassure people that they expect their members to uphold certain standards. I mean, “not screaming abuse at infants” is less upholding a standard than it is failing to trip over pebbles of basic decency…

Clearly one cannot put too much weight into Random Person Says Unevidenced Thing. However, it would be a foolish rumour to start without cause, so I thought it was worth starting a thread here to see if there are developments to follow.

Should Kavanagh face consequences for her behaviour it will be a watershed moment: Labour acknowledging women have rights all their own, including the rights to assemble & to speak on issues of concern to them, such as their need for single sex provisions.

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Tothebatmobileletsgo · 24/09/2022 11:23

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YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 11:28

SapphosRock · 24/09/2022 09:39

Thanks for sharing @AmaryllisNightAndDay it's a very balanced article from Helen Joyce.

I agree with her that hostility from feminists is not entirely baseless.

It’s not just a bitter history; it’s a fundamental difference in world views.

HJ thinks feminists can't say: “look, I know we disagree on many things, but a line must be drawn and surely Hearts of Oak is on the wrong side of it?”

Why not? The choices don’t have to be far right nationalism or extreme trans activism. Of course most people fall somewhere in the middle.

LangClag used to say 'eyes on the prize' and was willing to overlook PP's links with far right nationalism. I respect women who make that decision but it's not something I am comfortable with.

How right wing is PP generally? I get the impression "maybe a bit", but I don;t get that she is particularly right wing. She is a single issue woman, at least in terms of her campaigning.

I do think that it is important not to stand shoulder to shoulder with the far right.

I don't think that saying "I disagree with you on many things, but I am glad we can agree that men cannot be women" is standing shoulder to shoulder with someone.

Also, I suspect that no-one is asking you to stand shoulder to shoulder with PP, let alone the far right. They are saying "let's not fight amongst ourselves".

Tanith · 24/09/2022 11:28

I don't understand why KJK is being criticised, and not the far right groups that everyone disagrees with.

KJK is not far right. She was a Labour supporter: If anything, she's left wing, like so many GC women.

TRAs are not exclusively left wing. They have their own right wingers and I'm sure the Brighton TRAs would be appalled to realise some of the people they share aims with.

I don't see KJK as either an extremist or right wing. She has managed to get her message out there when every media outlet refused to cover it. Like it or not, the spectacle of Adrian Harrop's incoherent bluster in the face of her clear, calm "What is offensive about the dictionary definition of a woman?" had so many people beginning to realise what was happening. Her poster campaign really worked.
I don't know about anyone else, but when I actually see these people and hear the rubbish they spout with such fanatical zeal, I see them for what they really are and I wonder why anyone bothers to give them the time of day. Their written words and their filters, on which they rely so heavily, just fall apart.

As for the TRAs, they badly need to take a long, cool look at some of the people they are associating with and start condemning their views and involvement.
These accusations of "far right" are just a distraction from their own murky cesspit of associations.
They never condemned the behaviour of Aimee Challenor, Jess Bradley, and Lily Madigan, or the vile views of Peter Tatchell and Jane Fae, or the actual transphobia that some of them have come out with.
They try to justify the current crop of violent extremists and their behaviour.
Let's hear their discussion and soul-searching, shall we?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 11:38

SapphosRock · 24/09/2022 10:57

So, I guess we have to assume that you feel that the event style should be abandoned?

Of course not. But if women choose not to attend due to the risk of being live streamed by far right nationalists (and it seems that risk is pretty high) they shouldn't be sneered at and bullied.

Entirely reasonable, but reading this thread I get the impression that the problems is more that "pure" feminists are criticizing PP a lot, not that PPs supporters are criticizing "pure" feminists. Maybe my perception is wrong.

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 11:39

ImNotGreta · 24/09/2022 10:58

The risk of being live-streamed? What “risk” are you suggesting that this is? Is it “literal violence” for the wrong sort of people to see what you are saying now?

I don't think it is unreasonable, other things being equal, to not want to have a film of yourself speaking appearing on a far right website.

TinselAngel · 24/09/2022 11:45

Sappho genuine question- do you ever ponder how you've seamlessly, and in a quite short space of time, gone from telling women what to do on here because you were a TRA, to telling women what to do on here, because you're a better GC feminist than us?

WildIris · 24/09/2022 11:58

TinselAngel · 24/09/2022 11:45

Sappho genuine question- do you ever ponder how you've seamlessly, and in a quite short space of time, gone from telling women what to do on here because you were a TRA, to telling women what to do on here, because you're a better GC feminist than us?

Bloody good point!

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 24/09/2022 12:07

TinselAngel · 24/09/2022 11:45

Sappho genuine question- do you ever ponder how you've seamlessly, and in a quite short space of time, gone from telling women what to do on here because you were a TRA, to telling women what to do on here, because you're a better GC feminist than us?

That's a very interesting question.

FrippEnos · 24/09/2022 12:07

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 11:39

I don't think it is unreasonable, other things being equal, to not want to have a film of yourself speaking appearing on a far right website.

Has it been proved that oakheart is a right wing group?

Along side that you don't need a right wing group to video something to end up on a right wing website.

Datun · 24/09/2022 12:17

TinselAngel · 24/09/2022 11:45

Sappho genuine question- do you ever ponder how you've seamlessly, and in a quite short space of time, gone from telling women what to do on here because you were a TRA, to telling women what to do on here, because you're a better GC feminist than us?

And in both instances Posie Parker gets it in the neck.

Funny that.

AlisonDonut · 24/09/2022 12:20

TinselAngel · 24/09/2022 11:45

Sappho genuine question- do you ever ponder how you've seamlessly, and in a quite short space of time, gone from telling women what to do on here because you were a TRA, to telling women what to do on here, because you're a better GC feminist than us?

I know, right.

What were the chances?

YarnosaurusRegina · 24/09/2022 12:20

What exactly is the problem with these oaks men turning up and being exposed to feminist ideas and women's stories? As far as I could tell from the clips I watched, they were respectful, didn't attempt to hector or speak over or for women. The women who watch the event via their stream rather than the 'official channel' are as much stakeholders in this as the rest of us. Why is it assumed that they (all 2 or 3 of them!) will turn the political minds of over 100 women, many with established feminist beliefs and 'credentials'? Might it not work the other way around and take feminist ideas to their 'side'?

This whole thing reminds me of being peripherally involved in organising a GC feminist event a few years ago. A woman bought a ticket who we knew was a TRA, and who had made up lies about the behaviour of attendees at a WPUK event (think that was in Brighton too), I think she'd accused GC women of spitting at TRAs, completely far-fetched. But we didn't stop her and her friend coming in, we weren't concerned that they'd turn us all into TRAs, the hope was that our speakers would give her and her friend food for thought, and that maybe we'd 'turn' her.

The idea that people with somewhat extreme and divergent political views attending a women's event will somehow pollute women's political thinking takes us right back to before we had the vote, because it suggests that our political thinking is shallow and easily corrupted. The message coming from the devoted to the Labour Party GC women, when they tell women how to run events or even which events they are allowed to attend, or chastise them for attending, is that they know more and they know best. It's not a good look.

Sophoclesthefox · 24/09/2022 12:21

Posie does seem to be a sort of GC denunciation boggart. whatever you expect to see in her that you want to take issue with, you can find it.

She don’t half get up some peoples noses!

I wouldn’t have a clue what this far right group think of gender critical women because I don’t follow anything they say or do, and I wouldn’t anyway moderate what I think and say because someone might use it to advance some cause it was never intended for, or represent it in a bad faith way. How can anyone live like that?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/09/2022 12:26

I know, right.

What were the chances?

Yes, it's quite fascinating to observe.

ImNotGreta · 24/09/2022 12:28

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 11:39

I don't think it is unreasonable, other things being equal, to not want to have a film of yourself speaking appearing on a far right website.

OK, but the post above spoke of risk, not dislike. What risk are you positing?

Metabigot · 24/09/2022 12:42

Signalbox · 23/09/2022 08:36

it will have felt on a par with the BNP holding a rally in central Brighton.

I’ve often wondered over the years if TRAs genuinely think that women’s rights campaigners are on par with fascists. In reality I think it’s just another way to attempt to smear them and to prevent well meaning liberal types from actually listening to what women are saying. If someone is successfully labelled fascist or alt right or far right people will often dismiss them without even listening to them.

CMK was not scared of this man and his baby. She would not have been shouting at a BNP member with her face that close to theirs without risking a head butt. I think she knew full well that that man and his child pose no actual risk to her or anyone else in Brighton. The same cannot be said of the BNP.

I've had the 'nazi' comparison a couple of times. It's part of bigot bingo don't you know.

Which is just lovely for me as being of Jewish descent if Hitler had got into this country my family would have been annihilated.

Ofcourseshecan · 24/09/2022 12:49

Metabigot · 24/09/2022 12:42

I've had the 'nazi' comparison a couple of times. It's part of bigot bingo don't you know.

Which is just lovely for me as being of Jewish descent if Hitler had got into this country my family would have been annihilated.

CMK was not scared of this man and his baby. She would not have been shouting at a BNP member with her face that close to theirs without risking a head butt. I think she knew full well that that man and his child pose no actual risk to her or anyone else in Brighton.

Yes, it makes me laugh how heroic these people like to feel. How they admire themselves as they yell at non-violent women and a peaceful man holding a baby! Stunning and brave, for sure.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/09/2022 13:00

What exactly is the problem with these oaks men turning up and being exposed to feminist ideas and women's stories? As far as I could tell from the clips I watched, they were respectful, didn't attempt to hector or speak over or for women. The women who watch the event via their stream rather than the 'official channel' are as much stakeholders in this as the rest of us. Why is it assumed that they (all 2 or 3 of them!) will turn the political minds of over 100 women, many with established feminist beliefs and 'credentials'? Might it not work the other way around and take feminist ideas to their 'side'?

This whole thing reminds me of being peripherally involved in organising a GC feminist event a few years ago. A woman bought a ticket who we knew was a TRA, and who had made up lies about the behaviour of attendees at a WPUK event (think that was in Brighton too), I think she'd accused GC women of spitting at TRAs, completely far-fetched. But we didn't stop her and her friend coming in, we weren't concerned that they'd turn us all into TRAs, the hope was that our speakers would give her and her friend food for thought, and that maybe we'd 'turn' her.

Well yes, exactly. Why wouldn't we (general we) want as many people as possible to hear our message?

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 13:02

FrippEnos · 24/09/2022 12:07

Has it been proved that oakheart is a right wing group?

Along side that you don't need a right wing group to video something to end up on a right wing website.

I get that. I'm on KJKs side on this, but I can see why many people don't want to be on far right websites!

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 13:06

ImNotGreta · 24/09/2022 12:28

OK, but the post above spoke of risk, not dislike. What risk are you positing?

Presumably people speak of the risk of appearing on a far right website because they don;t want to be. People don't talk about the risk of getting a pay rise.

I am saying that it is entirely reasonable to not want to appear on a far right website. That is all I am saying.

I support KJK

ImNotGreta · 24/09/2022 13:10

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 13:02

I get that. I'm on KJKs side on this, but I can see why many people don't want to be on far right websites!

I don’t understand that at all. If you believe in your message surely you want it spread as widely as possible.

This comes across like the Labour activists saying they don’t want the votes of anyone who supported Brexit.

FrippEnos · 24/09/2022 13:14

YouSirNeighMmmm · 24/09/2022 13:02

I get that. I'm on KJKs side on this, but I can see why many people don't want to be on far right websites!

sorry I find your point interesting and this isn't a dig at you because we agree.

What exactly is being talking about when people say far right websites? because it seems to me that the meaning has been somewhat lost, because people seem to think that far right means Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh, The officer Tatum and libs of tiktok (yes I watch some of them, some I got from on here) that are conservative and obviously on the right , When they should be meaning NF, KKK, BNP etc.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 24/09/2022 13:20

It seems that the irony of this far right wing org, who has so little engagement on SM, being amplified by those who are resolute in refusing to 'stand on platforms/next to platforms/locate themselves in the same postcode' with right wing agitators, has been lost for many still throwing out racist/fascist accusations to anyone who fails to 'say the words' required to maintain positions in this 'movement'.

HoO got so little engagement (clear from twitter, I haven't seen other platforms) before the event, they're not even credible as this 'mighty nefarious enemy' that left wing feminists are warning us all of. HJ's speech in twitter had 8 likes (and a few likes they got I'd say were from women who didn't have a clue who HoO were). The live streaming that caused so much consternation fell on its arse.

If you look through their twitter profile, they barely get any engagement at all. They're definitely trying to 'glom' onto the push against gender woo, but haven't bloody succeeded.

Honestly, for all the hand wringing, finger wagging, angst laden outbursts over this, the only people I've seen amplify far right wing orgs are those diametrically opposed to them. The knee jerk response to this by so many, who talk of being on the same side of a police line with fascists as a sure fire sign those women must also be fascists, or fascist light, or fascist adjacent - when no one knew who they were/where they were have been so disproportionate & absurd, it's made a mockery of women's activism. The very accusation JCJ lays at women who were at the SFW event/organised the event/stewarded the event.

I've seen not one person who has rained down on this event directly challenge the men they have issue with, the org, Sophie Corcoran or even the TRA who had 3 people arrested for various reasons inc having a bag of fucking knives.

The tactics of those who have challenged this event, the organisers, the women who attended & the higher profile women who spoke, are woeful. JCJ & others talking about this being about politics (as various flying monkeys throw out base insults) while showing how utterly dire they are at strategic planning & reactions to anything that they disagree with - it shows they haven't a fucking clue how to actually do politics. Because the very tactics they're employing are the very reasons feminism has been hijacked & bastardised to the extent it has. Feminist orgs, women's 3rd sector orgs, anything that has women's needs as their USP have all being rendered impotent as everything their aims were about has been rendered 'transphobic' with no one able to challenge or defend the needs of women unless they 'say the words' deemed acceptable to maintain their positions or be cast out.

I don't 'do politics' because I see right through the manipulation, the dishonesty, the self serving justification of shit choices for the 'greater good' and won't give that any legitimacy. I loathe dishonesty most & the dishonesty at play over this has been absolutely infuriating to witness. The very worst part is that, knowing how throwing out the fascist/racist/nazi insults to women, by TRA types, has damaged or limited women's freedoms & activism, it's those so-called left wing women throwing out those same labels knowing what that means for women, that I find the most distasteful.

CMK is so lost in her lunacy she thought screaming at a baby was a 'just cause'. Left wing feminists shitting all over the activism of women they don't want to align with, on the flimsiest of reasons, are sailing closer to CMK's sails every time this happens. And it happens every time SFW events have exposed the gender woo zealots as the hate filled, aggressive misogynistic bastards we all know they are.

The narrative that women are fascist bigots is being fed to the TRA by other women claiming to want to work to protect women's rights. Make that make sense cos it's just fucking insane to me.

RufusthefIoraImissingreindeer · 24/09/2022 13:25

FrippEnos · 24/09/2022 13:14

sorry I find your point interesting and this isn't a dig at you because we agree.

What exactly is being talking about when people say far right websites? because it seems to me that the meaning has been somewhat lost, because people seem to think that far right means Ben Shapiro, Matt Walsh, The officer Tatum and libs of tiktok (yes I watch some of them, some I got from on here) that are conservative and obviously on the right , When they should be meaning NF, KKK, BNP etc.

That's a good point. The meanings of all sorts of words have changed

People just say 'right' now and that encompasses people who vote tory occasionally all the way up to the bnp

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/09/2022 13:27

Great post, @GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder 👏

I'm looking for the Hearts of Oak video on YouTube but I can't find it - has it been taken down?

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