Carly-May Kavanagh

[NitroNine]

There are rumours circulating on Twitter that Carly-May Kavanagh (the one who screams at babies: Daily Mail) has, despite her “apology” been suspended from the Labour Party. Presumably such a suspension would have an impact on her job as Lloyd Russell-Moyle‘s head of policy?

Apparently if she is suspended it [probably] won’t be made public. Given the reason for her [potential] suspension; if Labour actually do take action, you’d think they’d want to reassure people that they expect their members to uphold certain standards. I mean, “not screaming abuse at infants” is less upholding a standard than it is failing to trip over pebbles of basic decency…

Clearly one cannot put too much weight into Random Person Says Unevidenced Thing. However, it would be a foolish rumour to start without cause, so I thought it was worth starting a thread here to see if there are developments to follow.

Should Kavanagh face consequences for her behaviour it will be a watershed moment: Labour acknowledging women have rights all their own, including the rights to assemble & to speak on issues of concern to them, such as their need for single sex provisions.

And does anyone know who the anonymous far right speaker was (mentioned in the JH blog piece)?

no

as for the first part of your question ive no idea, what i do know that if there was a rally held in a public place by someone on the left for example that they would be able to sniff out any racists or people who vote tory in the audience and would somehow (haven’t worked this bit out yet) be able to get them to leave.

If you look up Hanover Hussy on Twitter she has done the most to push this "right wing" women into the foreground.

She's tweeted about her non stop to get this smear campaign going. I would never have heard of her without HH promoting her so much and I was actually there when she spoke.

Brighton Sanctimonious Choir

Their top notes could shatter glass. But it’s always been that way.

Helen J seems to have the sensible measure of the situation. The denunciation cycle is exhausting.

Yes Rufus.

I suspect the answer will have to be making it a closed venue meeting which will need to paid for and will deter some women, maybe many because I would stop attending, from going. Because it then ceases to be an open event and because ‘the right kind of speaker’ event, yet again.

The reality is that what is attempting to be forced is purity and so many of us simply don’t fit the mould, and I could not be arsed trying to.

it's kind of a delicious irony

the 'pure' brighton feminists decrying KJK because people she hasn't invited and can't control turn up to her event

then finding that they're pretty ideologically aligned with the baby shouter. she'd certainly describe herself as a socialist feminist

so come on, tell me what you're going to do about her behaviour brighton femininists. you share some views with her, so are obviously 100% responsible for her behaviour

Helen Joyce - who was there - raises the possiblity that KJK knew about Hearts of Oak in her blog www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-21/

"[Criticisms of the event] centred on who else was there: ..two men from Hearts of Oak, a hard-right groupuscule. Formed relatively recently, it is centred on Tommy Robinson (aka Stephen Yaxley-Lennon) and Sargon of Akkad (aka Carl Benjamin), a pair of free-speech warriors whose main exercise of free speech concerns the alleged awfulness of Islam. The men from Hearts of Oak livestreamed the event from a pretty good vantage point, suggesting that even though many attendees (myself included) didn’t know they were there at the time, Posie may have."
...
"For my part, I do think a line needs to be drawn, with Hearts of Oak on the wrong side of it. (I should also point out that the Brighton rally was in a public place, and the organisers had no power to turn anyone away.)"

I don't see what it has to do with Carly-May Kavanagh though. That just seems like what-about-ery.

I though the behaviour of randomly throwing around the word fascist until it sticks was a trans activist tactic but it seems to be something that our side are happy to do as well. Such a shame. I wonder what it is they hope to achieve? Just to maintain their own purity. Or to cancel PP? Perhaps they aren’t so different to trans activists as they would like.

And shouting in the face of a baby because of their parents' politics (or race or whatever else...) is dangerous behaviour especially if it's allowed to pass without consequences for someone who is otherwise expected to behave well in public. It's a message - for these people, on this issue, you can get away with this behaviour, normal human decency doesn't have to apply. Some people don't feel embarrassment over such things. They feel justified.

Thanks for sharing. This is a pretty balanced analysis from HJ.

I think that it’s fair to describe men dressed in paramilitary outfits wearing masks, physically trying to stop women organizing and speaking can fairly be described that way though.

Yes, it’s an over-used insult, but it’s appropriately used here.

I don't think it would be accurate to call the black clad TRAs at this event fascist. They are more likely to be left-wing extremists, anti-capitalist, anti-police, anti-state, anarchist.

Thanks for sharing @AmaryllisNightAndDay it's a very balanced article from Helen Joyce.

I agree with her that hostility from feminists is not entirely baseless.

It’s not just a bitter history; it’s a fundamental difference in world views.

HJ thinks feminists can't say: “look, I know we disagree on many things, but a line must be drawn and surely Hearts of Oak is on the wrong side of it?”

Why not? The choices don’t have to be far right nationalism or extreme trans activism. Of course most people fall somewhere in the middle.

LangClag used to say 'eyes on the prize' and was willing to overlook PP's links with far right nationalism. I respect women who make that decision but it's not something I am comfortable with.

Oh FFS!

How is that line to be drawn? At a public event in an open space that cannot be sectioned off?

Can you honestly tell us how that line should have been drawn if Kellie Jay did not know who was there? And how she should vet who is in the audience?

Posters keep repeating the phrase ‘draw the line’, but don’t say how it was to be done.

Should LGB Alliance vetted their attendees so that Ives was not allowed in to make their video about female toilets?

Where does this end?

I'm sure Helen Saxby and Helen Joyce will think twice about attending a SFW event again. They have both suggested that PP knew that Hearts of Oak were live streaming the event but didn't tell the speakers.

That is drawing the line. Choosing not to speak at an event where the event organiser is happy for you to being live streamed by far right nationalists.

It's not 'shunning' Posie or slagging her off or being lofty, haughty feminists. It's setting a boundary.

How is that line to be drawn? At a public event in an open space that cannot be sectioned off?

Can you honestly tell us how that line should have been drawn if Kellie Jay did not know who was there? And how she should vet who is in the audience?

Hearts of Oak's camera and tripod were set up in a prime spot right next to the SFW camera and starting livestreaming long before the event commenced properly. Some of the women who spoke are understandably unhappy that they are now archived on a British Nationalist parties website/socials alongside videos with Tommy Robinsosn and Carl Benjamin etc.

You could be live-streamed by far right nationalists, anti-abortionists, Owen Jones, Novara Media. Anyone. It was a public, open mic event.

I have looked at the list of Posie Parker sins as per the Brighton feminist group as per the link posted by sappho.

On abortion rights:
As far as I remember, Kellie Jay supports abortion rights. She has said that to her, because of the reach of trans ideology, this single issue should be the focus. Not that abortion rights should be ignored. And she also makes the point that abortion rights should have been adequately protected long ago.

So Brighton feminists dispute her priorities? And that is enough to declare her a sinner and dedicate a page to her sins?

On reproductive rights:
this page has a snippet where Kellie Jay Keen is stating that she doesn’t agree with donor conception. Some of us on this forum also don’t agree with donor conception because there is a large chance that it exploits women’s bodies.

So, Brighton feminists are quite happy for women’s bodies to be exploited for donor conception?
This is one step off those gay men in the USA protesting that they should have access to surrogacy because of reproductive equality.

And also, many posters on this forum have also asked what is the effect of testosterone taken by a female on an infant? And why the overwhelming majority of women should be dehumanised through forced language changes to accommodate a miniscule group of females who deny they are women, but then go and have a baby which is something ONLY a female can do. It is questioning the validity of the points upholding gender.

On Islam:
Most of the comments used in this section was about the lack of questioning of those gangs preying on girls and how that had been allowed to happen through fear of questioning a section of the community.

Do Brighton feminists think any group of the community to be unquestioned ?

On the radical far right in the USA:
The first link opens to this ‘In this recent video, Posie Parker/KJK thanks Marjorie Taylor Greene:

"The LGBT community is attempting to indoctrinate or groom children...We 100% agree with you, thank you for saying so!"

Only a group determined on a bad faith interpretation would use this. Just like the first link also takes a bad faith interpretation of the comment about men entering into female toilets as an example of how easy it is to use this ‘loophole’ that has been forced to accept any male into female spaces.

I skimmed through the other links and it is the same. ‘Posie Parker does not shun other women with bad views so she should be reviled’ (my own ‘bad faith interpretation’)

So, again. Only the pure seem to be welcome in that Brighton feminist group.

On Critical Race Theory:
Maybe someone who knows more about Critical Race Theory can tell us more about this issue of Kellie Jay’s and why she needs to be denounced because of the view she expressed in that video.

What I see here is a list of ‘purity sins’ specific to that feminist group. And I think pretty weakly explained and full of bad faith interpretations.

I guess I might fail the purity test too on not having totally pure thoughts on the ‘reproductive rights’ issue. I know plenty of people who call themselves feminists who also would be.

So, good thing I am not trying to fit into the mould to join Brighton feminists.

And again, how feminist and how moral is it to list the sins of a woman on a web site who apparently you must agree on some issues on but not others?

Can we get an answer to that please?

Really? When was she arrested and charged with assault then.

This is making assumptions that Kellie Jay knew who they were. Does anyone have proof?

Have you been to these events? It is actually very easy to walk up and take a prime position.

It is a publicly open event. That is the nature of it. If you don’t want to be on camera speaking, you don’t use the mic. It is always known that others who might be there may also live stream.People know that is the risk to be taken every time you even attend.

HJ thinks feminists can't say: “look, I know we disagree on many things, but a line must be drawn and surely Hearts of Oak is on the wrong side of it?”

Why not?

HJ is clearly making the point that if you've already maligned someone as being aligned with fascists, banned them from speaking at your events (after you have invited them to do so) and generally bad mouthed them at every available opportunity you are not going to have any influence about what they do thereafter. It's a bit like when the left call Brexit voters racist bigots but then have an absolute paddy when they no longer vote Labour at the next election. Feminists have every right to be critical of KJK but I think at this point it is clear that they are out of touch with many women who do "fall in the middle" and who do not see KJK as an extremist.

Yet the link you posted absolutely listed her ‘sins’.

Are you fully comfortable with that?

That is drawing the line. Choosing not to speak at an event where the event organiser is happy for you to being live streamed by far right nationalists.

No. Again you have not addressed how this is to be done to your satisfaction at this type of event.

And again, does this mean that everyone is vetted to attend any conference from now. Who sets the standard? Should LGB Alliance ensure not one extreme trans rights activist is in attendence? So that someone like Ives cannot video there?

And yet those who physically assaulted the women speaking are strangely not on the wrong side off the line, eh?

And you’re definitely not on their side here…

The fascist left is a thing though. Old wrinklies will recall groups like the Spartacist Alliance. We used to give them a wide berth at CND marches .

Something to do with their banner which read :

Defend Russia - Save the Workers' Bomb!

Oh dear. You see this is the bad bit isn't it?

A suggestion that something was known in one paragraph becomes a declaration that not only was it known but was happy about in the next.

This is downright nasty.

I've watched this go on for a week now since last Sunday. Terrible. Sanctimony is a powerful drug.