Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Yes me too, completely genuinely.

Dreamweaver is a raging lesbophobe who seems to be saying that if the lezzies can be considered women, so can any man. That if lesbians can be in a changing room, so can any man. Then Dream followed up by saying it's disgusting to consider these men sexual predators because lesbians cannot be sexual predators. Dream throws lesbians completely under the bus and us lesbians are fucking sick of people like you.

Can you give examples of posters saying trans women are disgusting or creepy please?

Most men aren't a threat.

But they aren't permitted to be in single sex female only spaces.

So how do we know which trans women are there with good intentions and which aren't?

And how can that be policed?

Typo ... Dream says lesbians CAN be sexual predators.

Of course they can't.

Out of interest (genuine interest) are there similar instances of female to male trans individuals using male changing rooms? I read an awful lot of m-f using female change facilities and would be interested to know if this is also an issue for that group?

Would men find it difficult to share facilities with a biological female?

I should caveat that I'm appreciative of the rates of sexual abuse perpetrators being higher from male side.

Of course they can't.

I'm confused. Are you referring to me and when did I say literally anything about lesbians at any point in the thread?

Are you getting me confused with someone else?

Because a true transwoman is no more a threat than any other woman! That’s the whole point.

Is that a deliberate invocation of No True Scotsman?

I think it is! Anyways, I've asked and asked and asked how one can tell the true transwoman apart from a not true transwoman and, no surprises here, answer came there none.

Because the answer is transphobic and those posters are very well aware that their answers would be considered transphobic.

To police whether someone is truly trans or not is very hateful and discriminatory and the very definition of transphobia. It is gatekeeping trans people and their identities.

Well all I can tell you is that my teenage boy refuses to use mixed sex toilets (I mean the ones that were single sex but have been rebadged) so I'd guess so

Karen White is a true TW.

Barbie Kardashian is a true TW.

What are you on about....?

It’s quite impossible and that’s the difficulty.

Would you be ok with a trans man in your changing room?

This is just going round in circles.

And if someone has fully transitioned?

What is fully transitioned?

Because again, you are gatekeeping transitioned status here. It is transphobic to do so.

One person's fully transitioned may very well differ from someone else's. You don't need much evidence to get a GRC and there will be no genital inspectors at any door (and nor should their be).

"Because a true transwoman is no more a threat than any other woman! That’s the whole point."

What is a "true" transwoman?
Can you be explicit please?

I really want to know what you mean by that.

Because we have been told that its:

1. Not to do with how long you have been trans


2. Not to do with how you look or what "effort" you put into looking female


3. Not to do with how you act ie in a stereotypically "female" way


4. Not to do with being on cross sex hormones


5. Not to do with having had any kind of gender reassignment surgeries


6. Not to do with having had any kind of counselling or therapy to discover gender identity issues

So if it's not to do with ANY of the above, a man could declare himself "trans" from one day to the next, be a 6ft 5 rugby playing bearded muscle bound giant, and walk into the female toilets today, say the magic words, and I am forced to play along because he is "trans".

So what criteria are you using for "true" trans-ness?

Also:

It's not ALL to do with perceived threat.
Don't you get the fact that it is THE MERE PRESENCE of men that many many women just don't want in their private spaces for reasons of privacy and dignity?

That's a separate issue to safety.
If women just SAY NO, WHY is that not enough to exclude the male species from female spaces?

I can't see that this has been answered yet and I've asked it about 5 times on this thread.

That is not quite the 'gotcha' that you think.

Many transitioned females who have extensively used testosterone and surgery absolutely know that their appearance may cause other females distress. While many of us would have no issue with these females using spaces, some people will find it distressing. So, therefore, we have seen the conversations around this, and many transitioned females would choose not to traumatise others and would choose alternative arrangements.

Again, while many of us would have no issue if we knew that this was a female using the space, we do not have the disrespect to make this decision for those who will be distressed.

Or are you going to bring up 'butch' looking females or a female who has not been on testosterone as an example? Because we have seen that many times and the answer is, they are females who may not have had the benefit of testosterone to change their body and are not the 'gotcha' that posters seek.

What are you planning to do? Give them a card they can pull out to affirm they've had full SRS surgery?

Who is going to ask to see this on the door of women's spaces? And isn't this a very gross invasion of privacy and demand for highly sensitive information?

What about those who cannot for whatever reason subject themselves to the very serious surgery involved with all its costs and risks? Why create this pressure to take those risks?

And practically, what are you going to do on the door of a female space when you ask to see a card and the TW says no, I don't have a card and I'm coming in anyway?

These systems don't work for anyone in the situation. What would work are third spaces and good will from the TQ+ community to care about and respect female only spaces and needs, this is the only workable compromise, but that isn't happening right now, is it? So the only answer for females is to push for the Equality Act exemptions to be radically strengthened up and spaces to be sex based, end of, no case by case negotiation.

If by that you mean genital surgery, are you aware that well over 90% of transwomen never have this?

For whatever reason most of them seem to like keeping their penises.

So a "fully" transitioned TW is actually pretty rare.

And we are told, as in my last post, that surgery is no indicator of your "trans-ness".

This is the problem.

Transmedicalism is something most trans people find offensive and unfair.

So it's no good to say it would be okay to make decisions about who is "worthy" of being in single sex spaces based on whether a person has had hormones or surgery or anything like that.

It's all people who identify as a woman or no people who identify as a woman. And as it's not fair or safe on women to say all people, so the only logical option left is no people. With of course the caveat that male single sex spaces should not be forced upon trans women as I imagine this would cause them both psychological distress and put them at risk of harm.

It’s quite impossible and that’s the difficulty.

And yet here you are insisting that TW are allowed full and unfettered access to female only spaces and services providing they are true trans even though you can't tell if they are or not.

Would you be ok with a trans man in your changing room?

Yes. If single sex spaces and services were upheld as absolutely single sex then I would be confident that the person in there was of the same sex as me.

This is just going round in circles.

Agree you are going round and round in circles and tying yourself up in knots because you won't say what you really want to say and that is that women and girls don't matter, their need for safety, privacy and dignity is to be disregarded and men's wants must take priority, if women and girls are then by dint excluded from using those spaces you don't give a toss because they matter not to you.

You thought you didn't have the words but this is articulated very well and spot on in my opinion.

The OP isn't wrong.
No.
In the vast majority of cases we can correctly sex people.
Yes.
No.