Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

I presume there is a male changing room. If that's the case, then they should have used that one. Both you and your mother is absolutely right to be uncomfortable with this and to raise this with the staff.

Whether they're at risk or not, the women deserve a place to change away from male bodies.

I'm tempted to agree. And that's as someone who thinks TRAs are the lowest of the low, who have poisoned the well for trans folk who just want to live a normal l8fe without drama.

Welcome. This is how I got here too. Hope the journey wasn't too distressing.

I'd go further to say, some are actively encouraging that subtle sentiment of risk analysis to be conflated with transphobia.

And as much as I'm alright with mixed sex spaces, it is not my place to give that away for all women, especially women in more vulnerable positions than myself.

Once seen, it becomes very difficult to unsee...

@GailForce10 - the drama is all of the person's creation. I'm sure there is somewhere else he can change without really frightening a load of old ladies.

Are there any other circumstances where you think a 40 year old man striding through a group of partially dressed elderly women is ok? Would your husband do it? If not, why is it ok for this person to do it?

Why do women think that's trans women pose no threat whatsoever to women? Men are the most violent sex. They don't suddenly lose that when they become trans. There are good men and bad men. Good trans people and bad trans people. They don't suddenly become saints because they have decided to live as a woman. They been socialised as men.

Why do women think that's trans women pose no threat whatsoever to women?

They are being 'kind'. The messaging has been persistent and very clear for a couple of decades now. From bumper stickers to TV shows, to lectures, to MPs and FB groups.

There is absolutely no evidence that shows transitioned males are less of a risk than the general male population. Yet, women are being shamed into accepting lowered boundaries because a group of people think it is wise and thoughtful to make decisions that put females in these situations ahead of any evidence at all.

Oh. And of course, by transitioned male crimes being recorded AND reported as female crimes, it takes women who are dedicated to protecting women to ferret out the data to show the reality.

But, I am really surprised that people cannot see any harm in a 40 something male walking through a female communal changing room to put their swim cap into a locker. It is another version of 'it is only one' or 'it only happened once'.

It is handwaving away an action that has been shown to be just another in a growing history of actions.

No-one denies the existence of trans persons.
No-one wishes them ill will.
But pretending that TW are the same as women gets nobody anywhere.
Pretending that it doesn't throw up a whole load of issues such as safeguarding and fairness gets nobody anywhere.

This in spades.

And following the whole raft of nonsensical special pleading which always inevitably includes:

• you wont even know they're male
• well you shouldn't have been looking anyway and then you wouldn't have been upset by her penis and testicles on display
• sex segregation is stupid and everyone should stop being prudes and be fine with male people's equipment on display
• NAMALT
• That never happens
• If it does, you can call the police and report it so no problem (this only applies to females: a male person feeling unsafe in a space is a huge deal that should not be tolerated at all)
• Reframe your trauma (but only females should do this, TW get a totally free pass and their feelings should be supported and respected at all times - no this absolutely does not prove that no one TW included believe TWAW cos.... reasons.....)
• females excluded from mixed sex spaces are stupy stupy dum dums and should abandon their religions/get over their disabilities/overcome their trauma immediately solely so that male people can do exactly what they wish without having to face that there are unacceptable consequences on others (again spot the binary sex based thinking underpinning this)

Yada yada yada. Join in with the chorus, you know the words.

This is why women are now getting totally pissed off and the answer is an increasingly blunt, flat no . We tried. We explored the possibilities. We found that we were going to be treated like absolute shit in very misogynist ways we are oh so bloody familiar with. And at this point, you can pull the other one, it's got bells on. No.

Why do women think that's trans women pose no threat whatsoever to women?

The pronouns and calling these biologically male people "women" act as a smokescreen. Trying imagining it as how you would feel if it were any other male person helps to dispel this.

Spot on as usual artichokes.
I would love some of the usual suspects to come and dispute your points but we all know that won't happen.

I can understand the issue of ‘is it really a transwoman? Or just a creepy man?’ but I’m sorry, a lot of posts on here go much further and seem to hate transwomen for themselves and act like they are being disgusting and creepy. Even if you think it’s a mental disorder you must know that people have felt ‘trapped in the wrong body’ since history began, so it’s not some new phenomena. You just have to look at research to see it’s a real thing.

You can say ‘it’s not my problem’ but unfortunately it is because currently all humans matter.

Sarah Everard's killing briefly made more public the fact that males who commit indecent exposure can be liable to escalate the seriousness of their sex crimes.

Even liberal feminist TRA supporters were talking about this and the fact Wayne Couzens' previous incidents of indecent exposure had gone unchallenged.

I don't understand why its suddenly not indecent exposure any more when the male in question has said special words. It is dangerous for absolutely everyone if we are not allowed to recognise male pattern abusive behaviour and violence simply because the male in question says they are trans.

This isn't saying trans people are abusive. It is saying males can be abusive. Gender ID is irrelevant to that, but current TRA thinking allows a huge safeguarding loophole if we confer special status.

TRAs need to be more confident in these scenarios. The abusive male needs denouncing. Assert that a genuine transwoman wouldn't do that (this is true of the transwomen I've known).

Catholic Church, Saville, Met Police... We are supposed to be learning from the past, not finding new areas for abusive males to exploit.

Why do people act like transwomen aren’t a threat?

Because a true transwoman is no more a threat than any other woman! That’s the whole point.

And how do we tell a true trans woman from a fake one?

Is there any reason to believe that transitioned males are not just as high risk as all other males? Have you found some convincing stats and studies? What has convinced you?

You can say ‘it’s not my problem’ but unfortunately it is because currently all humans matter.

Mmmm... do you go onto other forums and say this?

I repeat, please provide the evidence that clearly convinced you of this.

Because we have UK statistics that show there is no decrease in risk for transitioned males compared to all other males.

You seem to be asking for women to lower their boundaries based on your attempts to shame and telling people to 'be kind'. Based on no evidence at all.

Let us know how the pool responds to your mum's letter, OP!

Because a true transwoman is no more a threat than any other woman! That’s the whole point.

That's unlikely to be true as statistically biological males are more of a threat to women than other females are. What is the definition of a "true transwoman" and why would identifying as a woman make a male person have a different risk profile to other males?

No-one hates transwomen.

The trope about being born in the wrong body is no longer used for very good reasons, no-one is born in the wrong body.

All humans do matter, it also matters what some humans are attempting to do to other humans.

If transwomen had an iota of empathy they would know that their demands to access female only spaces causes issues for the females within those spaces and would look to find alternatives.

It never ceases to amaze that men - transwomen are men - insist that they are too afraid/uncomfortable to use the spaces and services allocated to them on the basis of their sex but disregard totally women who cannot use their own spaces when TW are in there because they feel afraid/uncomfortable. Selfish misogyny on crack.

Either woman are human and deserving of basic consideration or they are not - which is it @BiscuitLover3678 ? Or do only some humans count?

Also, it's not just about risk, it's also about respecting women's privacy and dignity, and the respite from harassment and being stared at by males.

Have you not heard of mixed changing areas? I have used several and people (men, women, children and trans) all use cubicles. There is never a problem and no-one is interested in the other pool users. Oh and the showers are mixed too. I don’t know what you think is going to happen to your mother. Trans women also need somewhere to change and privacy and are entitled to protection. I suggest forcing them to use men’s changing rooms wouldn’t necessarily be safe for them.

Perhaps you could read this thread.

Thanks for the kind words from posters since my last post.

It has actually been a pretty difficult journey. Both issues are issues that matter a lot to me and there are trans public figures that I admire and respect. The only heated debate me and my partner have really got into is over this. We are both very similar in our political and social views but a lot of progressive people in the public eye that we share most views on, have a very hard line TWAW attitude.

But ultimately, even disregarding any transphobic ideas, it just doesn't seem to make sense in the end. I may rewatch some of the debates that have previously informed my opinion and see how things seem different now.

@ToppCat If mixed sex changing rooms are so amazing, why can't a tw change in the male section. Apart from the fact you obviously haven't read the thread, what you are saying is illogical: females are at no risk if they change with males BUT some males are at risk if they change with males. Zero sense.

Have you not heard of mixed changing areas? I have used several and people (men, women, children and trans) all use cubicles.

This isn't a mixed changing area, please read the thread.

I may rewatch some of the debates that have previously informed my opinion and see how things seem different now.

Dreamwhisper, would you mind sharing which debates you had watched that helped you reach your previous opinion please? I am genuinely interested in understanding what is convincing to people on either side of the debate. And if there is some convincing arguments that had been put forward that you have seen, I am interested to see them if you feel inclined to share.