Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

As I said earlier, I don't think is all about a threat. No, most men are not a threat, nor are transwomen. However, that's not the whole point, although it's a very valid point as a predatory male can pretend to be a transwoman in order to gain access to women in a vulnerable position.

But lets take threat out of the equation and look at it from just one different, specific point of view, from a different minority group who would also like some understanding. A Muslim woman is not allowed to be undressed in front of ANY person who has a penis (not using the word man since apparently some people think a transwoman is not a man). Why should HER right to undress in a penis-free environment be trumped by a person with a penis's right to go into the same space because they "feel" like a person who doesn't have a penis.

Surely you can see from that point of view why women should be entitled to single SEX spaces? What is your response to this point of view, please? Genuinely interested as to who you now think is being "ganged up on". Are you honestly saying that a transwoman's right trumps a Muslim woman's? A transwoman can use the men's space, whereas a Muslim woman can now not go swimming, just in case. How is that okay?

I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't.

Most don't but males who place themselves in female spaces especially where we are naked/vulnerable do pose a risk do you agree?

we should be focusing on the actual perpetrators of domestic violence, sexual assault and the general misogyny/patriarchy poison.

Could you please post the papers, stats or studies you have found to be most convincing that transitioned males commit violent and sex crimes at lesser rate than other males? I have asked this quite regularly now and nothing has been linked up.

How about any evidence that transitioned males are on average less misogynist than other males? Because I have not seen that either in either my direct interaction with them or from reading their writings.

If you genuinely have been convinced that this group of males are different in the areas you mention, I would like to know why.

And up front, I don’t mean stories about your friends. I don’t have any male friends that have committed violent acts or sex crimes against women either, but I am not about to declare that other males are not doing it because those males I have contact with aren’t.

@speakout

I don't think that is main issue. I don't think transwomen are more or less likely to be predators, but allowing men into female places means predators will be attracted to places where vulnerable, naked women and children are.
Easy pickings, choose a quiet time, where women are likely to be alone, and no one can challenge a man entering a woman's changing room.

This is one of the more well-articulated arguments on threads like these, as opposed to the common descent of posters calling transwomen perverts and pedophiles. The argument boils down to perception of risk, increase of actual risk, significance of that increased risk and whether or not to balance that against the wishes of a minority - perceived by some as being highly discriminated and marginalised, but not by others. Is it justified or not justified?

@Helleofabore

Could you please post the papers, stats or studies you have found to be most convincing that transitioned males commit violent and sex crimes at lesser rate than other males? I have asked this quite regularly now and nothing has been linked up.
How about any evidence that transitioned males are on average less misogynist than other males?

I’ve too gone looking for this info on occasion. It doesn’t appear as though reliable information is available either way. I wish it were. Perhaps one day it may be.

@Didimum

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

tranwomen seems to offend at the same rates as males, looking at the evidence above

I didn’t say this thread. I said ‘threads like these’. It happened on Friday, multiple times, on a similar thread - that’s just one of many examples.

I didn’t say you did. I said it was ‘well articulated’ and ‘as opposed to’ - quite literally meaning you didn’t.

I have been sexually assaulted by males. I have no idea what their gender identity was, nor do I care. That's the point. Why are you presuming to know what someone's gender identity is? It's not relevant.

Sorry- I misread.

Yes we are in agreement.

Thank you for the link!

@Helleofabore - I am not in Sydney, but Brisbane. I wonder if the changing room situation also depends on how old the pool is? The pool I take my kids to (they are both sexes but late teens, so less of an issue re autonomy, etc) has had a very recent revamp, and it includes the change rooms. I am no young thing. I was born in the early 70’s when there was a very black & white approach to these things. The safety of my kids - physically, emotionally and psychologically is paramount to me, but I am not assuming that trans people are predators. (I worked in the music industry and as a flight attendant and I would say that I have worked with people from every part of every spectrum. I have many friends who identify in every different “category”, who I socialize with still and trust implicitly. I just don’t think my kids need to be anxious because there really are predators who choose to “self identify” to exclude legal liability in these situations. (And all of my friends have experienced the same thing…) There are a few dodgy a-holes giving lots of lovely people a bad name. *Every one of my friends whose gender is ambivalent or fluid chooses to change in gender neutral change rooms or the disabled toilet. They feel safer doing so and would feel like they were vulnerable in a single-sex one.

@Whitehorsegirl

I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't.

Most men aren't predators but because of the risk presented by some male bodied people, single sex female only spaces exist to safeguard women.

If the argument is 'yes they have a penis but that doesn't mean they're a predator and statistically most of them aren't' then do you fundamentally disagree with the concept of any single sex female only spaces?

@Whitehorsegirl

I have been a victim of sexual assaults in my life. They were committed by cis men who lived/presented as men and they were never strangers (this was either so called friends, colleagues and a family member), not drag queens in libraries, not trans women having a swim. Men in my everyday life...

I'm sorry for your experiences and as a fellow survivor I truly mean that

Can you, as someone who has been a victim of sexual assaults, not understand why the potential presence of male bodies people and penises in female only spaces could be hugely upsetting and frightening for other female victims?

If so, why are the feelings of trans women more important than the feelings of women who have been victims of sexual assault and want a safe space in which they can relax safe in the knowledge a male bodied person and penises won't be present?

I agree that more is needed. However, how is the data to be collected when crimes committed by transitioned males are recorded in official statistics as female crimes?

And in media as female crimes? Or not at all.

The very fact we have had women disaggregating the infomation at record level is a sign of how badly women have been treated by the policymakers in this regard.

Why do you doubt the figures that have been collated by women’s groups and recorded in government consultations without anyone coming forward to disprove them? Do you think that if groups could disprove these figures that they would not have publicly done this quickly?

What is it about those figures that have been presented to the government committees do you dispute exactly?

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

It's good you've come on here to talk about it, and think through the situation rather than react unkindly towards a person going about their daily lives.

A trans woman can use women's spaces.

A trans man can use men's spaces.

Everyone can use a unisex changing village (separate cubicles).

In time you'll see there's nothing to fear. They're just people living their life consciously. Be kind. Support safe spaces for the transgender community by sharing the gendered spacing.

Don't be disrespectful to transgender people.

So basically women should shut up and be nice.

We need to budge up and make room in female only spaces to accommodate men who want to be there.

But it’s fine to be disrespectful to women who want single sex spaces?

No.

You do not get to override women’s rights like this, and no, males do not have the right to use female single-sex spaces. They have no legal right to do so.

I didn’t say I disputed it. I said I was unable to find it reliably. You said you think ‘more is needed’, so perhaps we share a view there.

It could well be the age of the facility. I am also a queenslander and the pools I have visited there are old too and they were not in Brisbane. But the pools in Sydney are not quite that old, but are probably 15-20 years old.

Again, not one of those pools or female only gyms I used was not open communal female only changing space. The gyms were only about 10 years old. Plus some newish sex segregated beach changing facilities.

It could be a Sydney / Brisbane thing. it doesn’t matter though. Because communal changing rooms for females do exist in Australia as well.

Either way, you must realise that there are those who don’t do as your friends do and that is the issue at hand. If all people were as respectful as your friends, I doubt there would be the number of threads that there are.

Above was to @Helleofabore . Forgot to tag.

I would agree that we do share that view.

Just to clarify. Do you dispute the numbers or not though?

Could you be any more condescending for @user15? My local gym has 2 communal changing rooms, one for each sex and no cubicles. Everyone is welcome in the correct sex changing room. What's wrong with that?