Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

A woman can usually spot a man at 10 paces because they have to. There are very few males who can pass successfully as a woman. Any number of things can give a man away - height, size of the hands and feet, the jaw line and brow, breadth of shoulders. The list goes on.
Out of respect to the older women in the pool, this person should avoid using the women's changing room.

You seem genuinely confused by what a “trans woman” is.

I’m not confused. I just don’t accept that genuine trans women are men.

Literally none of that is true.

“Genuine”?

The entire point of being a “trans woman” is being a man “living as” a woman. What sort of witchcraft are you i look siting that switches them from living as a woman to becoming one!

To put this another way, what definition of “woman” are you using that Eddie Izzard is one?

I’m not confused. I just don’t accept that genuine trans women are men.

How can you tell by looking at them which trans women are, in your words, 'genuine' trans women?

What's the threshold they need to meet to be 'genuine' trans women?

I can't think of a way of knowing that. So surely sensible safeguarding would involve assuming they might not be 'genuine'?

We don't think all men are sex offenders. Most aren't, but none of them are allowed in single sex spaces. Do you think that's wrong too, on the basis that most wouldn't attack a woman?

All transwomen are men, they are biologically male it's the qualifying criteria in order to be a transwoman, a woman can't be a transwomen as they fail at the first hurdle.

What is this genuine you speak of? How is it measured? What are the criteria? What happens if they fail the genuine test? How many retakes are allowed? How do other people tell the difference between genuine and not?

So many questions, none of which will be answered.

So if you were looking for a surrogate, would you ask a TW?

Genuine question, please answer.

I am also confused as to what a "genuine" transwomen are.
Please let us know.

One of the factors that concerns me is that if we start allowing men into women's spaces the threat isn't from the transwomen themselves, but the easy path for any male to access these area.
There are other areas in society that have become hotbeds for predatory sexual behaviour- churches, children's home, sports clubs.
These places attract sexual predators, becuase they know there will be easy meat.
If we start allowing men into places where women and children are in a vulnerable situation then predators will target those areas.

Depends if you define women by their ability to reproduce. Sounds like @Fieldofgreycorn doesn’t.

Depends if you define women by their ability to reproduce.

Only Women can bare children. Infertile women are not men Didimum or do you think they are?

Muso was clearly pointing out the hypocrisy of the chant TWAW...that is until a surrogate is needed and then TW are suddenly not women and women are then defined by their ability to reproduce....

That's not answering the question.

I didn’t say I was answering the question. I said the answer depends on @Fieldofgreycorn ’s definition of woman.

@Didimum

lets do a simple question. Do you think women can get erections?

if yes, do you perceive any issues with an underaged girl seeing this?

My comment was about defining women through ability to perform surrogacy. Not defining either women or men through ability to get erections. However, your question still asks someone to define ‘woman’ by bodily ability. That is not how some, notably @Fieldofgreycorn in this part of the discussion, define ‘woman’. You aren’t required to agree with her, she isn’t required to agree with you.

What, in your opinion, are they then? I am genuinely interested in your reply because there are only two choices (I'm not including hermaphrodites because that is a biological anomaly that is irrelevant to this discussion). You are either a man or a woman. If you are saying that a "genuine" (how can you tell if they are genuine?) transwoman isn't a man, then you are saying that you think they are a woman. But they have a penis, which means they ARE a man. No ifs, no buts.

The more I read these threads, the less I get it.

I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't.

I have been a victim of sexual assaults in my life. They were committed by cis men who lived/presented as men and they were never strangers (this was either so called friends, colleagues and a family member), not drag queens in libraries, not trans women having a swim. Men in my everyday life...

I really don't think this is about my rights or my safety being compromised by transwomen. These threads too me are about ganging up on a minority and wasting time and energy there when we should be focusing on the actual perpetrators of domestic violence, sexual assault and the general misogyny/patriarchy poison.

"I really don't think this is about my rights or my safety being compromised by transwomen"

But some women DO want the right to be in spaces free of men. Why is that not enough?

I am trying to understand this better from your point of view @Didimum and @Fieldofgreycorn .

i think I am trying to be very open.

so my understanding is that you both think that women can get erections?

OK, that is clear. Are you both happy with underaged girls seeing exposed erections?

I mean, this happened at the WiSpa and many people defended the transwoman (unfortunately I believe this particular transwoman was a sex offender, but the concept still stands).

my view (based on sexed body) is that in the cases where we cannot avoid nudity (communal changing rooms etc), male bodies and any potential exposed erections should not be seen by little girls.

do you think little girls should see that?

"I truly have no idea as to why so many people equate a transgender woman with a predator and seem to convince that share a space with them routinely equals risk. I really don't."

I don't think that is main issue. I don't think transwomen are more or less likely to be predators, but allowing men into female places means predators will be attracted to places where vulnerable, naked women and children are.
Easy pickings, choose a quiet time, where women are likely to be alone, and no one can challenge a man entering a woman's changing room.

They're allowed to see womanly accidental innocent semi-e!rections, obviously. Though they would be really rude for looking at them, and would probably be committing a hate crime non crime incident by looking.

HTH.

Just clarifying, that was humid. I read it back and realised it was a bit too close to actual explanations given for comfort.

Humor! Ack! I give up.

It is quite simple: if you let male bodied people in who call themselves transwomen, you can't keep male bodied people who call themselves men out.
There is no way to see from looking at a male bodied person if they define themselves cis or trans or non binary or whatever. This is why segregation based on internal feelings cannot work, you cannot police internal feelings.
Bad male bodied people lie. Bad male bodied people are a proven risk to female bodied people. Female bodied people don't want to have to chose between not using communal changing rooms and being excluded from the opportunity to swim or having to strip naked in view of male bodied people.

Inclusion of transwomen in this case is actually exclusion of women, whilst the inclusion of transwomen isn't actually inclusion as they are already included in the male facilities. It is giving them (and all other male bodied people) the additional privilige of being able to choose which facility to use, something women cannot reasonable do. So actually this service provider choses privilige for one group at the expense of exclusion of another. Plain old sexism.

Can you please not refer to people as “cis”? It’s very offensive.