Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Bless you and your patronising little sermon.

The issue is males. It doesn't matter if they say they are women or not, it is males that are the problem.

Hope that helps your confusion.

Same. I am in my fifties and I have never heard anyone suggest that lesbians should not be allowed into all female spaces until the trans arguments surfaced.
Comparing lesbian women to men - homophobia.

She’s not confused. She has a view that it in opposition to yours.

What a load of utter tripe.

Women do not have to set aside their fears or boundaries to be welcoming to men, what are you going to say next that we should just lay back and think of England if we're not in the mood for sex but our partner wants it cos that would be the polite and kind thing to do.

I do not want to see a naked male who is not my husband and I do not want a naked male who is not my husband to see me.

I am allowed to have that boundary, you cannot take that boundary from me to validate your identity.

Same. I am in my fifties and I have never heard anyone suggest that lesbians should not be allowed into all female spaces until the trans arguments surfaced.
Comparing lesbian women to men - homophobia.

I remember real lesbophobia. The woman didn't even have to be lesbian but she was targetted as such. I was targeted when I had a pastoral role in an educational institution. An abusive male spread around that I was a lezzie so that younger women would not tell me of his harassment of them. Similarly, all feminists were 'man-hating lesbians' - said to prevent women from organising.

Oh dear.

You must surely realise that some posters have loved ones who are trans? Or maybe even some with trans ex-partners.

Please stop assuming that people posting on FWR just don’t ‘know’ trans people. That is your own prejudice coming through.

People can know and love trans people and still want single sex spaces to be single sex unless properly signed otherwise so they can make their own decisions.

People can know and love trans people and still recognise that all post pubescent males should be treated at the same level of risk and that there are no sub groups that merit separate treatment without very robust data to prove otherwise.

@User15

So let me just check, (although I'm guessing you won't reply), you are saying a Muslim woman is being unkind because her religious beliefs dictate she cannot undress in front of a man? So she should just shut up and either go against her beliefs or not go swimming instead so that the transwoman can use the space HE wants to? How about the transwoman is kind and doesn't force an actual woman into an untenable position?

You are entitled to whatever boundary you like. That doesn’t mean that your boundary has to be enshrined in law, social contracts, or the policies of private or public organisations.

But single-sex spaces absolutely are enshrined in law. One of myriad problems here is that some trans males and their enablers refuse to abide by single-sex rules.

After women and girls have been sexually assaulted or the victims of voyeurism, or stop accessing the spaces and services they need in sufficient numbers you mean @Didimum ? What out of interest is the number you would consider sufficient?

It is not solely about safety, it is also about privacy, dignity and comfort for women, I'll ask again, why is any woman's need or desire for that not worthy of consideration? Why are the feelings and desires of men wanting to access single sex spaces and services your priority?

This is pitting two minority groups against each other, because you are referring to the religious belief. Where the rights or wishes of two minorities overlap and disagree, that is to be handled appropriately - one minority doesn’t automatically trump another. If you don’t agree that trans people are a minority rightfully entitled to that debate, that’s your opinion.

Again, you are being dishonest here. A male, however they “identify” has no right to be in a female-only space.

You really need to read and understand the legislation here, as you keep posting outright untruths about it.

I have no idea how you cannot see the issue is, if you let a transwoman in, all other men can also come in. Including your brother, your dad, your friends, your colleagues. If any of them want to come in and assault you in your previously safe woman only (cunty type) space.
And then when they assault you you can call the police and be arrested for a hate crime if you call them men.
But you appear to be able to tell who is a real transwoman, want to share that secret with the rest of us?

This is pitting two minority groups against each other, because you are referring to the religious belief. Where the rights or wishes of two minorities overlap and disagree, that is to be handled appropriately - one minority doesn’t automatically trump another. If you don’t agree that trans people are a minority rightfully entitled to that debate, that’s your opinion.

I think the comment was more about having the debate. Of course we can debate if all communal changing rooms should be mixed sex, even though it would exclude a fairly large part of the group of women who don't want to have to change in full view of any male bodied person who is there as well.

But be honest about it: even though transwomen have adequate facilities provided for them, if they don't want to use those, they should be allowed to use those of the opposite sex if they want to even though it negatively impacts a larger group of people. So more options for male people, less for female people.

This is called sex discrimination btw. It is illegal.

Once again, I said I ‘couldn’t reliably find’, I didn’t say I found numbers insufficient. I actually genuinely thanked helleofabore for the link she provided.

I also didn’t say anything wasn’t worthy of consideration, nor did I say what my priority was. One of my points (not priorities), as given a few pages ago was perception of risk, significance of increase of risk and whether discrimination (again I specified that the discrimination of trans people does not exist to some) is justified or unjustified.

People can know and love trans people and still want single sex spaces to be single sex unless properly signed otherwise so they can make their own decisions.

And some people may have very strong opinions about the importance of single sex spaces because of the trans people that they know.

Thank you for replying and whilst I do have a differing opinion to you, I would like to thank you for engaging as it's always helpful to get a different point of view. I agree, it is pitting two minorities against each other, but that is what it comes down to since women as a whole group must "be kind" and allow men into their space even though it may frighten them to do so.

How could this situation be handled appropriately then? In a situation where there are two changing rooms, one for men and one for women. Two people turn up at the same time. A Muslim woman and a transwoman. How should that be handled? Muslim women already don't take part in a lot of things, especially sport, due to possible conflictions with religious beliefs. This is further eroding their freedom. However, a transwoman has the choice to "be kind" and to use the mens' facilities...

I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative, it's a genuine dilemma. I ask because I live in a very multicultural town. If my gym opened the female changing area to transwomen then I can pretty much guarantee the gym would lose approximately a third of its members.

99% of sex crimes are committed by males. That is reason enough to exclude them from women's spaces. Transwoman offend at the same rate as all other males. Why do you think they should have an exemption?

This is certainly true.

It is ridiculous to try to push the trope that all trans people are even respectful of women, let alone that all trans people are safe and not a risk at all.

No. There is no evidence that they are any less risk of any other male. And if people advocate for one group of males to be considered low risk when they have no proof, just a wish that it is true, then they have to admit that they are discriminating against all males and that all males should have access to female single sex spaces.

That is the point that needs to be repeated.

I also didn’t say anything wasn’t worthy of consideration, nor did I say what my priority was. One of my points (not priorities), as given a few pages ago was perception of risk, significance of increase of risk and whether discrimination (again I specified that the discrimination of trans people does not exist to some) is justified or unjustified.

The exclusion of male humans from female humans' safe spaces is justified because they statistically present a risk to women. Males who identify as women are no different from any other human males.

What space does a woman use if her experience of sexual violence means she is triggered and frightened by seeing a penis so cannot risk that happening?

What space does a Muslim woman use if her religion dictates that she cannot be in any space where she may see the penis of an adult she is not married to so cannot risk that happening?

What space does an elderly woman use if she is not comfortable being in the presence of a penis so cannot risk that happening?

By your own logic, the female sexual assault survivor, Muslim woman and elderly woman should now not attend their classes anymore.

What's kind about that?

But @Didimum my boundaries are supported by law and by social convention. Some TRAs are trying to remove my rights to those boundaries and I'm supposed to support that because women are supposed to be nice y to I men and let them have their way. No. The answer is No. if you want a space away from men that fundraiser and campaign for a third space but you can't have mine.

I understand the fear and nervousness - but so many of you are being unkind. Encountering trans women in real life might still be a new or uncommon experience for you. You're taken aback. You've reacted in fear. You're mentally checking your safe and have sufficient control.

Wow. Patronising much. I have met a range of men who identify as women (or queer, or 'trans'). Some I quite like. I still would not want to share an intimate space with them though because they have, or have had pensises and still have XY chromosomes. Others I have found actually quite scary - and I avoid sharing even a mixed room with them, clothed and in broad daylight. It's the same with men more generally - and this is the main point - I don't want intimate spaces where I am naked and vulnerable opened up to men - and in the case of self ID any man can identify as a woman.

No worries, I can tell you’re being sincere in your response. I agree it is a very important intersection to consider, especially for facilities that commonly cater to both minorities regularly in real practice, not just in theory. I’m afraid I don’t have an all-encompassing answer to that at this point in time. In regard to ‘eroding their freedoms’, I would argue whether it is the religion itself which is eroding the freedom - not the facility that puts a policy in place that is at odds with the requirements of that religion and not the transwoman whose wishes are at odds with the requirements of that religion.

So if you were looking for a surrogate, would you ask a TW?

Genuine question, please answer.

It’s not a genuine question. I think we’ve established you can't change reproductive sex. But you can change some sex characteristics. Enough to be considered that sex for many purposes but obviously not all.