Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Well @VestofAbsurdity we wouldn't want to risk 'othering' them would we?

They are not 'other' they have declared themselves women and that's how it works, they declare something and it becomes truth.

Oddly, I declared myself 20 years younger, slim and rich the other day and no one has ID checked me when buying wine, or hit on me in the street or invited me to a country club so I'm feeling pretty fucking pissed off if I'm honest, it's like 'they' aren't seeing my real identity.

Have been considering identifying as a toddler as when really examining my feels I've determined that I don't feel like the kind of person who should be working or taking responsibility for things, I identify more as a person who is cared for and gets to have what I want, when I want and an afternoon nap so really I do feel that I identify more with 2 yr olds than 38 yr olds. I will of course be attending parent and toddler sessions at the pool and my DH will need to change my nappy in the changing rooms. I don't anticipate that anyone will have a problem with me hanging out with their kids or playing with them in the softplay because that's what 2 yr olds do and I will be a 2 yr old LITERALLY be a 2 yr old because that is how I have identified and as we see from the allies on this thread how I identify that's precedence over anyone else's feelings and should be accepted without question.

@FatAgainItsLettuceTime and why not, you go for it after all it's the identity that counts.

Staggering isn't it?

Nobody answers this question. Ever.

I suspect it's because it would involve them outright admitting that they prioritise the feelings of male bodied people over those of female bodied people.

I wish they'd at least have the guts to just admit it.

I think you'll find it's because male feelings are deep and important whereas female feelings are irrational, unimportant and mostly motivated by our prissy bigotry...

I wish they'd at least have the guts to just admit it.

It would make a refreshing change @wellhelloitsme .

Yes it goes around in circles.

Women say that they don’t want their privacy and boundaries eroded. Trans and allies say that is transphobic.
Women say they have respect for trans rights not be discriminated against, but that this is a single sex space, and women also have rights to be respected. Trans and allies ignore that - and move on to why should we respect women’s rights to privacy, because there is no privacy to respect (cue but there are single cubicles, but there are mixed spaces, but it’s only women who have been abused).
Women justify their with to privacy for numerous reasons. Trans and allies ignore and dismiss.
Women then offer alternatives or ways in which women’s privacy and trans ‘wants’ can both be accommodated. Trans and allies say that this is not good enough and upsets a trans mental wellbeing. Trans and allies say this is because they are not being validated as a woman.
Women say that a man is not a woman, however they identify. Trans and allies again say that this is transphobic.

From what I see, the only people listening in this debate are the women. The only ‘rights’ or ‘wants’ that are being listened to are trans. This will never, ever get resolved until trans and allies actually start to listen…

Should say trans people, not just trans.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Fieldofgreycorn
If she still has male genitalia then yes she should be in an individual area. If post op, no one should be making assumptions about whether someone is trans or not anyway according to the EHRC.

That sounds like you're suggesting genital checks for entrance to the changing rooms. Which would be inhumane- and just so unnecessary for a swimming pool!

Much easier to have a blanket "No males in the female changing room" rule, instead of the "If you show us that you've had your penis surgically removed, you can come in" rule you seem to be suggesting.

Argh, sorry, was trying not to @ you, Fieldofgreycorn!

Part of the problem is that transwomen are very often vulnerable, quite often autistic and they feel excluded by men and feel great relief in 'finding their true identity '. On an individual level I know a transwoman who's life has been transformed by transitioning. However transwomen are being given unrealistic expectations with very powerful voices telling them TWAW and feeding in all the 'your body is female because you feel female ' ideas. They then have their hopes dashed when their fantasy world is punctured by being told they can't access safe single sex female spaces. Transwomen would experience a lot less negativity if they could just be honest and take ownership of their trans identity. I feel genuine sympathy for many transwomen who just want to be accepted but I also have to stand up for my rights as a woman and for all women and girls and keep our boundaries which are determined very simply by biology.

Women then offer alternatives or ways in which women’s privacy and trans ‘wants’ can both be accommodated. Trans and allies say that this is not good enough and upsets a trans mental wellbeing.

Women's mental well being is, of course, irrelevant and dismissed out of hand.

Trans and allies say this is because they are not being validated as a woman.

Rarely is it ever admitted that validation is the goal, but they are happy for women and girls to be used in this way which says an awful lot about them and none of it flattering.

In this case the transwoman was using a locker. There is clearly some private space she changes in, but are all the lockers in the two single sex areas?

Those of us who are not so young will remember similar complaints about lesbians in showers at schools or gyms, and tabloids filled with stories about 'predatory lesbians in sports clubs like Martina Navratilova. As PPs have pointed out lesbians and bi women are no physical risk to us but there were still a lot of angry voices about privacy and dignity (which is what gives the legal justification for SS spaces). I think a lot of us have sympathies because -many- of the same things said about trans people were said about LGB a generation ago (and before that with race segregation). Obviously there are also some very objective differences

I was a teenager in the 80's and I do not remember any discussion about keeping lesbians out of changing rooms or any movement formed to do so. None.
I think this is something trans activists have made up. Again.

@SpecialABC That is all assumptions and I don’t buy it. Autistic people have empathy and can follow rules, perhaps more than most NT people. Autistic men, however they identify, do not need to go into a woman’s space in order to enhance their mental wellbeing. Autistic people are just as respectful of privacy as anyone else, no different, and I think it’s demeaning to say that they are not as capable of respecting single sex spaces as anyone else.

@CrowUpNorth I also don’t buy this. I do recall sometimes snidey homophobic ‘jokes’ about lesbians or gay men in single sex spaces, but no movement that was in uproar about this in any serious way. There was never anything that worried anyone enough to suggest that single cubicle bathrooms or changing rooms were needed because of the ‘threat’ of gayness. There was no mass hysteria or any proposed action. It’s also fundamentally different, a lesbian was not insisting that they go into a man’s changing room, or insisting their own special facility, they just carried on using the facilities of their own sex.

So really I don’t know what you are talking about.

Awww fuck, sorry no. It's a cinematic trope nothing to do with tabloids.
I mean nice try, but you are so wrong.
Did you forget that you are posting on a website absolutely chock full of women who have been alive a long time and/or are educated in such a variety of things we can shoot down all your utter tripe.

@CrowUpNorth

The irony of you using specifically Martina Navratilova, who has spoken out against TRAs insisting women step aside to welcome male bodied people into their teams and changing rooms is incredible.

Maybe have a read about the tireless campaigning she's been doing to protect fairness and safety for women and girls in sport. You'll learn something.

Nope. No evidence of that whatsoever. In fact why would you even make that up? You weren't there.

I spoke to my mum again today. She was on her own in the changing room when this big male bodied person strode in from the pool, took his* swimcap off, towelled his hair slightly and put the hat and the towel in a locker and went back to the pool.

My mum was frightened. She stopped getting changed and sat there on the bench, hoping another woman would come in. She is 88 ffs. This person is late 40s, in good physical shape and over 6 foot (we are a tall family so my mum knows what that looks like).

Also I was wrong about the other changing room. The aqua ladies do not know what the club has said to the person. It was supposition by my mum's friend that the person was using a different changing room as they hadn't seen him in a while. But he has been there the last couple of times my mum has been to her class. And been using the women's changing room that my mum and all the other aqua ladies use. There are only two men apart from this person in the class so, assuming there are also 4 cubicles in the men's, they could change in there. Or another place.

*I am using male pronouns because I don't know what pronouns this person uses so as they are clearly male, he/him seems most appropriate.

And yes, the lockers are in the changing rooms.

Honestly, have some people never been to a gym before?

1 in 6 women in their lifetime will suffer a rape or serious sexual assault ( Stats from RAAIN, the rape crisis support group) That is millions of women in the uk or US. The majority of them will never report it. Which ones are they?

See if can spot them next time you walk down a quiet corridor in a hotel or get into a lift. You can't spot them. Does it ever cross theminds of transwomen that perhaps the women that have a problem with transwomen in their safe spaces are the ones carrying that trauma with then and don't want somebody with a penis near them when they are in vulnerable positions. Toilets, changing rooms, communal showers etc That after all was why safe spaces were given to women in the first place. Perhaps these safe spaces are all that enables these trauma carrying women to function in society.
We don't know because nobody gives these millions of women a second thought and asks them. They are too busy " being kind " and worrying about a tiny number of transwomen.

If this point has already been made I apologize as I haven't read the full thread.

Those of us who are not so young will remember similar complaints about lesbians in showers at schools or gyms, and tabloids filled with stories about 'predatory lesbians in sports clubs like Martina Navratilova.

This isn't true.

Even if it was, it doesn't negate the fact that males in women's spaced threaten womens safety and dignity.

Those of us who are not so young will remember similar complaints about lesbians in showers at schools or gyms, and tabloids filled with stories about 'predatory lesbians in sports clubs like Martina Navratilova.

No, we don't more risible nonsense and I'm someone who went to an all girls Boarding School.

My mum is 88. How old do you think I am?!