Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

Also - do we now need to know the "type" of erections men are having? Is one kind more acceptable than the other? Why should we have to see ANY erections in a female space?

I know, at the point you're equivocating about women being exposed to males' erect penises based on whether it was a good or a bad erection it's probably the time to have a little word with yourself.

I'm on your side. I was just proving to @Dreamwhisper why it's a load of shite saying the onus is on women to figure out whether a man in the changing room is an innocent TW or a perverted voyeur. Single sex spaces exist to stop women ever having to question whether a penis in their presence is safe or not.

I'm sorry I can't I'm cringing too much.

I'm saying that if you are going to extrapolate that if I disagree with you, that means I am asking something of you.

By the same token then, you are disagreeing with me and therefore asking something of me.

But this exchange is adding literally no value to anything as you've skipped over the relevant parts of my post and are just doing that strange gas lighty question asking of yours.

I just asked my husband, a lifelong sports enthusiast, if he's ever seen another man with an erection in the changing rooms caused by rubbing himself dry. He snorted out his drink and told me not to be so ridiculous! That the only time men get erections is when they're sexually aroused.

You can't base decisions that effect entire demographics on the potential feelings of other people.

Yes. Women and girls, half the population, should not be negatively affected and have their existing rights ignored because of the potential feelings of a small group of males,

It's just more simple than that though. Why don't you go about your business if someone is not bothering you and if they are bothering you then make it an issue.

You don't have to figure anything out.

Right then it was inappropriate and criminal then.

I think we're losing sight of the fact that I'm in favour of not necessarily excluding trans women from all settings as the impact on their every day life is too great.

I'm not an advocate for any erections, anywhere.

Well..

me disagreeing with you is asking something of you? In what way?

sorry, what were the relevant parts of your post?

My contention is that you think trans women (I would say men), should be able to use women's toilets and changing rooms, is that right?

what follows from that is you are expecting me to share women's toilets and changing rooms with men, yes?

ergo you are asking something of me

and I'm sorry that being asked to examine your beliefs makes you so uncomfortable, but with respect I think that's a you problem not a me problem

We're not talking about excluding them from "all settings" Dreamwhisper. Don't be disingenuous.

Just the ones where it is necessary to protect women and girls when they are vulnerable, or to give them privacy and dignity.

and to be fair that's what I meant by "that's a bit of a reach"

I don't think any decent trans woman would need "protecting" from female changing rooms in case anyone thought ill of there actually perfectly innocent erections

Oh goody, now we should be ok to have exposed penises and erections in single sex spaces as long as it is the “right kind” of erection?

how does a 9 year old girl judge that @Dreamwhisper ? And my 11 year old daughter would actually be slightly uncomfortable seeing her 13 year old brother naked (terrible, I know) but a strange, adult penis person with the right kind of erection should be accepted?

@Dreamwhisper But it is bothering people.

It bothered Lia Thomas' swimming team mates. It's bothered OP's mother. Clearly it bothers a lot of women. You don't make rules and policy based on whether a particular person's penis offends or not. You make it on the basis that no stranger's penis should be around women who are in a state of undress when they haven't consented to it. Because women don't need to psychoanalyse whether a penis is safe or not, when they're changing their knickers.

Women with poor boundaries around males don't have the right to consent on behalf of other women.

To those saying things like 'you didn't see the trans womens penis so what's the issue'.

What about the womens right to choose whether or not they get naked in front of a male?

I have only been seen naked by my husband, that is my choice, I do not want any other males to see me naked.

I ask for female doctors, I change in female changing rooms.

You are extraordinarily naive, Dreamwhisper. They are just males. All you have to do to be a "trans woman" is say "I identify as a woman". You can literally be a man one day and a woman the next. Or even the same day. The magical thinking of some of the people on this thread is fascinating.

No I just misunderstood because of your uncomfortable phrasing.

To be fair I still think saying "I'm asking" you to do that is too emotive and overly personal.

I agree with the bit that says in the equality act that you don't necessarily have to exclude trans people from your single sex spaces. That you can, but it's not the default that you have to.

I don't see how that is any more or less demanding than you saying to me, I don't agree that trans people should be allowed in any single sex spaces. Because you're "asking me" then, to be comfortable with excluding trans women from any womens public toilet etc. And no, I don't actually agree with that. Isn't that clear?

Why do you need to ask me if I think it's okay for trans women to use toilets and changing rooms aimed at women? I've surely made that abundantly clear through my posts?

Why did you feel the need to frame it as me, personally, asking you, personally, to do so?

I'm just not prejudice against trans women, I don't believe the vast, vast majority of people who identify as trans women or trans men do so for any other reason that because of how they feel about their own self and identity.

Men have more than enough avenues to abuse women, sadly. And anyway, sadly it is just one of the truths about the existence of trans people. You can't discriminate against all of them based on the fact that some people might abuse that. You just can't. What you do is you make provisions to exclude them when it feels appropriate. Which is um, exactly what we can do.

don't think any decent trans woman would need "protecting" from female changing rooms in case anyone thought ill of there actually perfectly innocent erections

Missed this.

I meant women and girls (remember them?) are vulnerable, not the males accessing female spaces against the wishes of the women and girls and having "perfectly innocent erections" 🙄

The first step to convincing society "I'm a woman", has to be, stop thinking and behaving like a male chauvinist .

Yep.

"It's very easy to try and shut people down by bringing out examples of awful things happening but it's not really fair to hold all people accountable and make decisions that prejudice an entire demographic of people because of some criminal peoples' appalling actions."

Given that approx 98% of all sexual crimes are committed by men, that statistic pretty much speaks for itself.

I'm still going to be wary of a man walking behind me at night if I'm alone. He might be the nicest man in the world, but as a woman I am forced to accept the reality of my body, my vulnerabilities and my sex. And I follow my instincts to protect myself.
And I will tell my daughters to do the same thing.
Men as a species have proven themselves to be a greater threat to women. That is not to say that individual men are lovely, kind and safe.

The point is that it makes most women uncomfortable. The TW doesn't have to be a predator of ANY kind (although I would argue that any man who goes into a female space will know that they are making those females uncomfortable, and does it anyway, is not as kind hearted as they could be).
The TW just has to be a MAN.
It is their presence which is the issue, not the "potential" of their criminality.
I don't care if that makes me prejudiced quite frankly.
It's why single sex spaces have existed in the past.

Also to your point - aren't TW THEMSELVES prejudiced against men? They are using women's spaces (apparently), because they are fearful or anxious about the reactions of other men. And as men themselves they will be in a better place to know what typical men are like.
Yet women are somehow supposed to be the human shields to protect them from the perceived threat of other males.

You can't discriminate against all of them based on the fact that some people might abuse that.

They don't actually have to do anything, women expect males not to enter a female space so they are already violating women's privacy and dignity. They've already caused harm, even inadvertently. Even the lovely ones. Although I would say the lovely ones would respect women and girls enough to use a different space.

The first step to convincing society "I'm a woman", has to be, stop thinking and behaving like a male chauvinist .

I mean why though, when you get so much fawning praise for it.

Also to your point - aren't TW THEMSELVES prejudiced against men?

Yes, but that's different, because reasons.

To be fair I still think saying "I'm asking" you to do that is too emotive and overly personal.

we are talking about real life here. it's personal. if facing the reality of your opinions makes you uncomfortable is that not a sign of something?

I don't see how that is any more or less demanding than you saying to me, I don't agree that trans people should be allowed in any single sex spaces. Because you're "asking me" then, to be comfortable with excluding trans women from any womens public toilet etc. And no, I don't actually agree with that. Isn't that clear?

But if you get your way I have no single sex toilets and changing rooms. If you get your way you are at liberty to seek out and use mixed sex changing rooms and toilets if that's what you prefer.

Your way = choices for you, zero choices for me
my way = choices for you, choices for me

Why did you feel the need to frame it as me, personally, asking you, personally, to do so?

because as above, this is real life. Katie Dolatowski, a man who identified as a woman sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl in a women's super market toilet.

His carer let him go in there because he identifies as a woman. if you had been his carer you would have let him go into that women's toilet. If I had been his carer I would not have allowed it. your beliefs have practical consequences

Also to your point - aren't TW THEMSELVES prejudiced against men? They are using women's spaces (apparently), because they are fearful or anxious about the reactions of other men. And as men themselves they will be in a better place to know what typical men are like.Yet women are somehow supposed to be the human shields to protect them from the perceived threat of other males.

Well said. TW with a penis feel too uncomfortable being around others with a penis so they decide to enter the space of women and make them feel uncomfortable around a penis. And that's ok. Madness.