Transwoman in the changing room at school pool

[PoolFloat]

My mum goes to aqua aerobics classes at a sports club in a private school. Recently, a transwoman has joined the class. My mum was told that they use a different changing room to the one next to the pool but today they came out of the pool and put their swimming hat into a locker before returning to the pool to join the class (there is adult free swim beforehand).

The club has a safeguarding policy which states they will: prioritise the safety and well-being of children and adults at risk

I'm not sure if my mum is considered at risk? She is 88 and nearly all the women in the class are in their 70s and 80s.

The changing room has a communal area with only four cubicles so most women get changed in the communal area. Now they are reluctant to do so.

My mum has asked me to help her draft a letter from the women in the class saying how uncomfortable they are that this person is in their changing room but doesn't know how to word it.

Can anyone help please?

@Lollypip
give me an example of a TW assaulting a woman in a changing room

yep, okay, in an American High School a ‘ trans girl’ raped a natal girl in the changing rooms. Expelled and and moved to another school where they did it again.

*Do I believe that going round with an erection in public spaces is a sexual offence?

I'm 99.9% sure (and hope) that it is.

Am I convinced that the law around this needs to be changed based on that case? No.*

Well then we better hope no TW ever has an involuntary erection in a female changing room like Lia Post did.

Single sex spaces exist as much to protect TW as women. And by that I mean TW not being in a position to get accused of voyeurism because they are still attracted to women and may have a visible erection as a normal part of the attraction.

Probably confusing you with another poster, or your posts about voyeurism were basically the same.

Good customer service...

I'm sure a polite education and maybe even a spa voucher will make her feel better that her boundaries and feeling of comfort come second in a female single sex space.

Her's and those of all other women who are interested in single sex spaces.

Never mind.

I'm talking about good customer service as in accommodating her needs and wishes for a single sex space even if their wider policy is that they don't by default exclude transgendered people with their corresponding single sex space (that matches their gender identity)

This person isn’t a woman.
They know this is a trans person because he is male. Obviously.

OP, you may want to refer to this guidance which was released in May by the EHRC; there is no 'high bar' as some would have you believe.

"To establish a separate or single-sex service, you must show that you
meet at least one of a number of statutory conditions (set out in this
section of the guide) and that limiting the service on the basis of sex is a
proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. For example, a
legitimate aim could be for reasons of privacy, decency, to prevent
trauma or to ensure health and safety."

So, to be very clear, a legitimate aim would be the privacy and dignity of those ladies in the female only changing rooms.

Page 5
www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/guidance-separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-equality-act-sex-and-gender-reassignment-exceptions.pdf

I think you are asking me to share women’s toilets and changing rooms with men (you would say transwomen)

is that not the case?

How sad that you don’t believe privacy and dignity when in a state of undress is a legitimate purpose. Do you think religious belief is legitimate? because my Jewish and Muslim female friends wouldn’t be able to use this changing room. Their legitimate religious beliefs are being eroded.

This sounds like a reach to me. I will admit I haven't read the article, the thread is fast moving and Im preparing dinner.

Was it an erection because they were aroused or is it an erection like when I change my baby boy's poo nappy and the motion of the wipes triggers it?

Obviously I was basing my answer on the former and not the latter. I would simply feel sorry for someone if they were berated for having an "erection" when they're simply towelling themselves off. But I don't know what happened.

I don't really know why there aren't just single spaces for all this shit. I'm shy I don't like to change in front of ANYONE.

And even without my own sentiments single spaces seem just so much less controversial.

Fab - thank you @InTheCanteen

Why are you acting like I hold so much power over you? It's very off putting and I don't think it's hitting with the resonance you think it is.

I haven't written the law around the reasonable inclusion or exclusion of transgendered people from various public or group spaces. I'm so so confused what your point is.

Am I asking you to share as in do I support the law as it is right now? Well I guess so. But in that case you asking the opposite is asking me to be discriminatory, which is also something I'm not comfortable with. Who wins then?

What garbage! So a woman who has been subjected to male violence has a right to a single sex DV unit but has to forget her trauma if she goes swimming? Do you honestly think trauma can be compartmentalised and doesn't encroach on what you consider "everyday life"? If so you've never experienced trauma...

Obviously I was basing my answer on the former and not the latter. I would simply feel sorry for someone if they were berated for having an "erection" when they're simply towelling themselves off. But I don't know what happened.

Males shouldn't be "towelling themselves off" in a female only space, and then there wouldn't be these mishaps.

It's just pure sexism and misogyny, from all who support it.

Why do you think we have had sex segregated spaces ?

Am I asking you to share as in do I support the law as it is right now?

Why do you keep mentioning the law as if the law gives these males special rights to access female only spaces? It does not. They use them because they decided that they could. It's not enshrined in law.

It’s quite a simple question:

do you think I should share changing rooms and toilets with men?

let’s rephrase it to make it less personal, that might make you more comfortable about answering

do you think transwomen should be able to use women’s toilets and changing rooms?

both questions are really the same if you give it a little thought

Was it an erection because they were aroused or is it an erection like when I change my baby boy's poo nappy and the motion of the wipes triggers it?

That's the thing, the team mates said it was a sign of him being attracted to women still. They said it made them uncomfortable.

But it's an erection, the reasons don't matter and no one will ever be able to prove why it happened. The point is if a well known TW poster child like Lia Thomas can have this issue of an erection when being in a women's changing room, you have to assume many other TW (who were straight as men) will too. Especially those who are entering women's spaces for the first time. Just like straight men would. However it is not the job of women to be understanding of this or waste any time pondering the reasons or their comfort. That's why TW with a penis cannot and should not be allowed in women's changing rooms.

The law on accessing female single sex spaces is exactly the same for all males, if whatever gender identity. It's not illegal for any men to use them, it's a social contract that they don't. Expect there to be zero female single sex spaces in future, as women will start bringing men into them for protection.

The person is a male, now changing in the same space as other women, why does he have more rights than a bunch of women?

@ganvough

so let me get this straight. Someone with a penis is in a girls changing room and they have an ‘involuntary ‘ erection, but no one should feel threatened or even just embarrassed because it is involuntary.

How do the girls know that it is involuntary? I haven’t got a penis, and indeed have never had one, but I rather thought that most erections were involuntary , in that they are a reaction to a stimulus which the penis owner finds, well, arousing. Erections are Precursors to sexual activity, and if the penis owner is not with a person or person who has expressed or demonstrated a reciprocal interest or intention……that’s sexual harassment.

it really doesn’t matter if the person with a penis is Mr Predator or dear little Lia, it’s still harassment, and girls and women have a legal right not to be subjected to it.

Further to this, you seem to think I’m asking something of you

can you explain what that is?

"transgendered people with their corresponding single sex space (that matches their gender identity)"

Well, that's going to be a problem then isn't it?
Because as soon as a trans person uses the "corresponding single sex space that matches their gender identity", it is NO LONGER A SINGLE SEX SPACE!
Not for the 99% of other women who are using it.

Also - do we now need to know the "type" of erections men are having? Is one kind more acceptable than the other? Why should we have to see ANY erections in a female space?

I can't believe I'm reading this shite.
Some poor little TW got an innocent erection, it's not her fault, don't look, be kind, stop frothing at the mouth etc.

Give your head a wobble.

@Dreamwhisper Ive tweaked your suggestion.

Dear Sir or Madam,

My 70 year old mother attends a swimming class and has informed me a male who possibly identifies as a transwoman used the female changing rooms to put her hat in a locker whilst my mother and other females were in a state of undress in the communal changing area - as there are not enough single use cubicles for all.

My mother was not comfortable with this as she understands according to the Equality Act that the female changing rooms should be single sex spaces only.

Have you completed an impact assessment of making single sex spaces unisex? Are you able to comment as to whether you would be willing to enforce a policy of your changing rooms being single sex only? I understand that it is lawful to do so, however I also understand that your policy may follow the Stonewall laws and therefore be to allow people to use the changing room of the opposite sex rather than their biological sex if they identify as trans.

Could you please clarify this matter for me, and if your current policy states that you do not want your changing rooms to be single sex, can you advise when you will be providing single sex provisions for people who are not prepared to put their privacy, safety and dignity at risk, along with those who’s religion forbid them to be undressed in the presence of the opposite sex?

I appreciate your help in this sensitive matter.

I don't have to share my experiences with anyone to justify my beliefs thank you.

I don't think policy can be made around this kind of thing because not all people, traumatised or not, would agree. I have had my share of experiences at the hands of men and still don't feel threatened by trans women doing some things.

I'm not saying my experience and feelings means everybody should be okay with it. But that's the point. You can't base decisions that effect entire demographics on the potential feelings of other people. I don't use the word feelings lightly by the way.

It's not up to me to come up with the answers on how people who's trauma is so extreme that potentially seeing a trans woman should behave and what they should include and exclude in their lives.

You can't simultaneously say that these decisions should be made based on whether some women would feel so traumatised they would have to stop doing something if they saw a trans woman but then equally say it doesn't matter and it's not our problem when someone raises the possibility that a trans woman might be so traumatised by their experiences around men that all they want to do is not have to use male spaces.

You will obviously as people who don't like or care about trans people take massive offence to this but don't try and pretend that is a solely feminist, and not transphobic, endeavour. I am a feminist and I fully appreciate the trauma (with personal experience) women can suffer at the hands of men.

I mean you could if you were transphobic and saw them as unworthy of consideration in the same way.

It's very easy to try and shut people down by bringing out examples of awful things happening but it's not really fair to hold all people accountable and make decisions that prejudice an entire demographic of people because of some criminal peoples' appalling actions.