Caster Semenya out of world 5000m as Coe signals tougher female sport rules

[Helleofabore]

Sean Ingle’s article today is very clear on more than one point.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/21/caster-semenya-out-of-world-5000m-as-coe-signals-tougher-female-sport-rules

“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance,” he said.

“I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”

Coe insisted it was his responsibility to “protect the integrity of women’s sport”.

“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender,” he added. “Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.”

and then there was this below about Caster Semenya. No more tip toeing around. It is like the new wording being considered by Coe has led to sticking to facts.

Semenya had previously won the world title at 800m three times, including in her last appearance at London 2017, but is now barred from running international events from 400m to a mile unless she takes medication to reduce her testosterone levels.

That is because, as a 46 XY athlete with a difference of sex development, the Court of Arbitration of Sport has ruled that Semenya has an advantage over the female competitors against whom she races.

Seyni who narrowly missed a medal in the women’s 200, much like Mboma has zero start or sprint technique. In the final Seyni completely messed up running the curve, and was still able to use strength and accelerate from way behind to nearly get Asher-Smith at the line. These athletes are running off their pure advantage and are beating women with far superior training and technique.

In the steeple, DSD athlete Getachew had set a national record in the 800m before being pulled right before the Olympics. After one year of running in the steeple (a technical event involving hurdling barriers while running full tilt), she set a national record at Worlds, beating another Ethiopian athlete Abebe who was visibly upset - she would have been the first Ethiopian female under 9.

These athletes are also showing impossible range - Niyonsaba was 3rd in the 800m at Rio, forced to move up, and beat world mile record holder Genzebe Dibaba’s record in the 2000m (Dibiba comes from literally the most accomplished family of women runners ever, the sisters have multiple world and Olympic medals between them. You quite literally could not get better genetics, training, role modelling etc. for the “cis women just need to try harder” crowd.) She is now second all-time in the two mile, and beat 5000, 10, 000 and half marathon world record holder Letensebet Gidey, who has the most perfect running form possible. She won the 5,000m diamond league final over 10,000m World silver medallist Hellen Obiri and was 5th in Tokyo in the 10, 000 an event she had only recently started running. No female athlete has ever shown a range from 800m to 10, 000m. Middle distance is a different discipline and 800m runners are either 400/800 types like Mu or 800/1500 types but no one is an 800/10, 000 runner. Again, note all the women who lost places and records are African women. In contrast, after Sifan Hassan did the unprecedented 15/5/10 triple in the Olympics, it took so much out of her she had to take months off running completely.

Take a look through Jamaican Twitter and see what a nation of sprint obsessed Black people think about DSD athletes beating female athletes and come back and say this is about European women.

XY 5-ARD athletes like Semenya are able to father children as the seminal ducts in the testes produce viable semen, and Semenya seems to have done so with their partner. In notoriously homophobic SA where corrective rape against lesbians is epidemic this supposedly lesbian partnership is publicly tolerated - this is because everyone knows Semenya is not female. In school, Semenya wore a male uniform as has been pointed out. Semenya has also made comments about how weak women are and other disparaging comments; and contrary to claims they lived and were socialized as a girl, they in fact played with boys, dressed as a boy (again, in a homophobic country) at school, wear the male track kit, etc. despite being sold as an advocate for rights, Semenya never speaks up about the many women’s rights issues in SA or in Africa.

In the 5000 m there was a blatant difference in body and running style to the women on the track. While I do feel very bad for teenage Semenya who was only 18/19 when all of this started publicly, has been used by the SA federation and has been the subject of public discussion which I’m sure is traumatic, Semenya is now in their 30s, already has money and success, and yet continues on insisting on the right to run in women’s races. At this point, Semenya is absolutely complicit.

I remember listening to Sharron Davies discuss the cheek swabs for testing for sex.

Apparently the female athletes were asked about them and she indicated that the majority voted ‘yes! Continue to use them,’ but they stopped in the mid to late 90s. I think before the Sydney Olympics. This was despite majority support from the female athletes to continue the practice.

I don’t know why though. She was clear that the female athletes wanted them however.

Spot on again, @Misstache

Spot on again, Misstache

+1

I can recall an argument about cheek swabs as being invasive procedure, undignified etc.
That was always a crap argument as female athletes were happy to do them but even more crap now the world and his wife have been sticking swabs up their nose twice a week for two years!

I've just found this thread after seeing so much nonsense on Twitter about CS. I don't understand if these people have been brain washed by the media to believe that CS truly is female , or whether they believe CS is female because being a woman is open to anyone who says they are.

Thank you @Misstache and @Helleofabore et al for speaking sense. Glad that I read your posts and am not alone

Thank you! Very informative.

I really don't see why the norm can't just be cheek swabs, with a rider that those with CAIS get treated differently.

It's not as though there are so many different DSDs that will confuse everything. It could be very straightforward.

The claim was the swabs were demeaning, outdated and unfairly removed actual women from the competition - which wasn’t and isn’t what happens.

If a female athlete, for example, tests outside the testosterone range, she isn’t immediately banned and called a man, nor immediately assumed to be on performance enhancing drugs. She is asked to take a pregnancy test first, as Testosterone spikes during pregnancy. If that is negative she may be examined for other conditions such as a tumour, PCOS, etc. If there are indicators of artificial testosterone then she would be subject to the drug adjudication system and allowed a defence and evidence.

Similarly, with SRY testing, abnormal results led to further questioning and investigation. In 1996, the last time all female athletes were tested at the Olympics, 8 athletes were found to be XY with DSD (mostly AIS.) All were allowed to compete. 6 had already been diagnosed and had their internal tested removed which was the approved treatment at the time but is no longer recommended.

Any woman with high testosterone who is not XY DSD, pregnant, or taking drugs is at medical risk. XY athletes are at risk for certain cancers and medical follow-up is important for health as well. Whatever the case is there is further testing not immediate sanction.

Given that athletes have to provide their whereabouts and schedule, be available for testing in and out of competition, have to pee in front of testers, can be blood tested, etc. the idea that a cheek swab is over the line is absurd.

When the issue came up on here a few years ago, (when the IOC were trying to rule), very many people genuinely thought Semenya was a woman with high testosterone.

There were lots of reports about how she had to repeatedly show her genitalia to prove she was female, etc.

People on Twitter calling Semenya a cis female could easily be victims of the propaganda.

Even when women here were told categorically that Semenya was male, that the DSD was only applicable to males, they still had trouble relinquishing the idea.

It's a lot easier to change your thinking if you believe you have been subjected to deliberate misinformation tho.

Apparently, in Twitterland, because Semenya’s birth certificate shows that Semenya was (wrongly) assigned female at birth, Semenya is a “cis woman”.

True fact. To say otherwise or event hint that 46XY 5ARD is an exclusively male DSD makes you a racist / misogynist / transphobe etc.

lol, None of it makes sense.

This person has fathered a child, has testicles, and yet was assigned female at birth. How do the explain that as 'cis', even in the crazy world of trans ideology.

All of that rings a bell with me, thanks@Misstache . It also backs up our hunch that the abandonment of cheek swabs was political.

I see that The Guardian has amended its report, deleting the word "wrongly" from the original version of the sentence "There has been considerable sympathy for Semenya, as she was wrongly assigned as female at birth". A shocking bit of revisionism there! web.archive.org/web/20220721043820/www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/21/caster-semenya-out-of-world-5000m-as-coe-signals-tougher-female-sport-rules

@Misstache
Every now and again a poster like you comes along with such incredible knowledge, reminding me why Mumsnet is just the greatest forum for women!
Thank you!

The RFU are now following World Rugby:

The Rugby Football Union has today recommended a ban on transgender women playing in women's matches.

The decision has come following a two-year review, and the change in policy could be introduced ahead of the 2022-23 season if approved by the RFU Council.

A statement read: 'The RFU council will vote on a recommendation for a policy change for contact rugby to only permit players in the female category whose sex recorded at birth was female.

The current policy had seen the English governing body allow some transgender women to play women's rugby on a case-by-case basis.

However, English rugby has now changed its mind, saying research provides evidence of 'physical differences' and 'advantages in strength, stamina and physique' due to male puberty.

They therefore said the decision came because 'the inclusion of trans people assigned male at birth in female contact rugby cannot be balanced against considerations of safety and fairness.'

The decision on transgender players sees the RFU align with World Rugby, who state: 'Transgender women may not currently play women's rugby… because of the size, force- and power-producing advantages conferred by testosterone during puberty and adolescence, and the resultant player welfare risks this creates.'

^^

Excellent spot.

Its erroneous appropriation by 'the trans lobby' makes the "...assigned... at birth" terminology a bit of a bugbear for many people [me included] but it's absolutely appropriate in Semenya's case. CS was (incorrectly) assumed to be female at birth. as far as we can tell she never 'felt' female, but probably only realised she truly wasn't roundabout the time she hit puberty, i.e. in her early-mid teens, i.e. a few years before her athletics career got really serious.

To adapt that slightly:

'The inclusion of trans people assigned male at birth in female spaces cannot be balanced against considerations of safety and fairness' is it in a nutshell.

It's a message starting to spread.

Only common sense, really. Rugby is on incredibly thin ice at the moment, with stories like this one kicking around. The absolute last thing it needs is a Daily Mail hack turning up at some grass roots game looking for footage of some 20-odd stone bloke repeatedly wiping out ballerina types in the name of 'inclusion'.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/17/ryan-jones-dementia-diagnosis-aged-41-wales-rugby-union

It's a message starting to spread.

Finally.

This is beautiful! Because it is right, this is driven by sociologists.

Good. Disgraceful that it took them so long.

Semenya’s high school principal actually said he had no idea she was supposed to be a girl until the last year of high school - coincidentally the year she began running track! Semenya is the 4th of 5 children, 3 girls and a boy. In interviews, Semenya has talked about playing football with the boys - Semenya’s sisters were not able to do sport and were expected to help around the home. I wonder why only Semenya of all these girls and supposedly socialized as female was the only one allowed to run around with the boys and not do female tasks?

I've seen a few people mention Semenya has fathered children, is that definitely true?

I've never heard or read this from an official source. CS seemed deliberately silent on whose sperm was being used for the wife's recent multiple bouts of IVF.

Thanks misstache. You are fucking awesome

just fucking awesome