Caster Semenya out of world 5000m as Coe signals tougher female sport rules

[Helleofabore]

Sean Ingle’s article today is very clear on more than one point.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/21/caster-semenya-out-of-world-5000m-as-coe-signals-tougher-female-sport-rules

“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance,” he said.

“I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”

Coe insisted it was his responsibility to “protect the integrity of women’s sport”.

“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender,” he added. “Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.”

and then there was this below about Caster Semenya. No more tip toeing around. It is like the new wording being considered by Coe has led to sticking to facts.

Semenya had previously won the world title at 800m three times, including in her last appearance at London 2017, but is now barred from running international events from 400m to a mile unless she takes medication to reduce her testosterone levels.

That is because, as a 46 XY athlete with a difference of sex development, the Court of Arbitration of Sport has ruled that Semenya has an advantage over the female competitors against whom she races.

Didn't Caster get their Olympic medals upgraded because the winner was found to have cheated? Interesting result given....everything.

I'm not sure anything about the way Caster presents or lives suggests female on any level. I think they know they wouldn't be able to win in their sex category.

Seems there are a fair number of athletes in this category. All three medals at 800m until the rules changed. Enough for their own race?

Wow, fuck Nike.

also is anyone else getting the cringe from the very simplistic language in the ad copy that’s attributed to Semenya?

I am finding something distinctly weird about how the words put in their mouth sound kind of like a board book, maybe that’s just me.

The Nike Ad fucks me off even more. The reason Nike sponsor Semenya is because Semenya won continuously while competing as a male against females. Think of all the women who missed out on medals, Diamond League prize money, and sponsorship deals like this because they had no chance of success while competing against Semenya. It’s ill gotten gains.

In fact, to take it further, the only reason Nike STILL sponsor Semenya is because of Semenya’s claim of injustice. Would any of the other female athletes who have competed in the women’s 800m over the last 10 years had such a strong and ongoing sponsorship deal long past any level of competitiveness? Of course not. They would have been dropped years ago. The only reason Nike continue their sponsorship of Semenya is to capitalise on the propaganda machine to sell gear in Africa 😡.

I have PCOS, definitely a woman <side eyes offspring>

A DS of a friend of mine has hypospadias and micropenis. He's still a boy.

It's also sort of retrospective justification for their sponsorship decisions, isn't it? Trying to make it look like they were and continue to be on some ethical crusade, rather than just having thrown money at an athlete who was winning races because money talks.

The article has one of the rare instances of "assigned female at birth" being used correctly too!.

That ad is a damn joke.
How about giving the real FACTS and letting people do the research .
How about being transparent that Caster is a biological male with VY chromosomes?

Suspiciously left out.
Pandering to the "oh, she's just a poor girl with high testosterone" misconception.

I could easily write a similar ad from the point of view of any number of biological women who have lost out on a medal to a biological male.
At least it would be true.
And would hold up to scientific scrutiny.

*XY

I am (insert female athlete here)
I am a woman and I am fast.
I worked, I trained, I dedicated my entire life to running.
That's what makes me good.
But apparently, not good enough for some.
I'm denied the right to run my race, unless I accept that I may have to compete against people who have gone through a male puberty and have enormous advantages against me.
I'm left with no choice but to compete in a race which I cannot win.
Why must womanhood include biological males?
Being a biological male does not mean being a subset of woman.

etc etc

Surely, by this point Semenya is basically trans - by all scientific measures a male, but identifying as female?

I am Mokgadi Caster Semenya.

I am biological man with a disorder or sexual development. I have XY chromosomes but I was erroneously assigned female at birth. I have experienced male puberty. I have fathered children.

I am fast. But not as fast as the fastest biological men without typical sexual development.

I worked, I trained, I dedicated my entire life to running.

That's what makes me good. Better than biological women. But not quite as good as other biological men.

But apparently, I’m not allowed to compete against biological women in the races I’m too good in.

So good that I'm denied the right to run the race of my choice in the category in which my biological maleness gives me competitive advantage. Obviously I don’t want to take medication to change the body I was born with, but I want to win. So why should I race against other adult humans with XY chromosomes who’ve experienced male puberty?

So good that I'm complaining that they’ll only let me compete against biological women in races that I’m less keen on.

So good that my genitalia and DNA have been scrutinised and it was discovered that I am not biologically a woman. The XY chromosomes and the male puberty are, in fact, a significant advantage over biological women.

Why must womanhood fit be defined in such a way that I don’t get to benefit from
unfair advantage?

Being "too good" doesn't make a woman any less of a woman. Saying I’m ‘too good’ for the female category on the basis that I’m biologically male is totally sour grapes because I’m not actually good enough to win against other people who are biologically male.

I don’t actually care how good a biological woman can be because all that matters is that I get to race in the events I want to where I am confident I will win.

(with a signature at the bottom)

I think you should send that copy to their advertising agency!

@Truthlikeness I think so but it is complicated.
She was observed as a female from birth. This is on her birth certificate. She was raised as a female but following her performances had gender testing when it was discovered that she was in fact a male with DSD.
SA birth certificate article

As far as I am aware her birth certificate has never formally been changed, so she continues to state that she is female. It must have been a difficult time for her having her gender challenged in the media. World athletics were right to say she and other DSD's should lower there testosterone in order to compete but in her mind at the time she was just a female with high testosterone. Maybe she has changed that view and is now living as a male but at that time she definitely thought she was a 'manly looking woman'.

It would either be down to her to formally change her birth certificate, the South African authorities to force the change or World Athletics to amend their rules effecting DSD athletes.

ARe XY-people with CAIS still allowed to compete as women? I know that there was some research that showed over-representation of the disorder amongst elite athletes, suggesting some advantage even without male puberty.

Or XY with sry- or inactive?

presumably they will need to make individual decisions on each case (which I think would be the best solution, as you can't make a decision based on either chromosomes or genitalia, given the variations in hormones and responsiveness to those as well). I can't see any other way around it other than some sort of decision based on whether they have gone through male puberty or not. And I know that must be a difficult thing for someone to have to have judged, especially in some of the edge cases of partial insensitivity etc. But how else?

Biological men should compete against men and not biological women. Woman are women and trans women are trans women who have chosen to change their gender to the opposite sex - their choice but they will never be a biological woman - it's scientific fact.

this

"gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.”

I don't think the rulings are anything to do with transwomen competing, which is a whole other issue. There is no evidence at all that there is any high proportion of transwomen with DSDs. Most transwomen are straightforward biological men.

Was being slightly sarcastic, but I get your point about the birth certificate :-) I think Semenya has actually known they are genetically male for a long time - over a decade - so I have limited sympathy by this point to be honest. The Nike advert is doubling down on that. As people have pointed out, Semenya has been very disparaging about women in interviews, and clearly sees themselves as different.

“Girls are soft” - CS’s own words

However sorry you may be that a male person has suffered confusion and a shock revelation as to their sex in their life, it does not justify sacrificing female sports and female athletes to them as a consolation prize. Female people and their resources are not something to be permitted to exist only if they are not required to be donated to help distressed males.

As FIFA said, to paraphrase, it is proportionate and necessary that a few cannot have what they want so that the massive majority are able to compete fairly.

I'm not into sports so wasn't aware of any of this before - I just looked for info on 5ARD. It does seem suspicious to me that a rare condition is so over represented in athletics -
There is some evidence that 5-ARD in elite female athletes with hyperandrogenemia may be 200 times that of the general population (https://myvagina.com/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency/)

Oops posted too soon -
This genetic disposition is discovered at birth by identifying ambiguous genitals. This can be misdiagnosed as complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS), which looks practically identical.

When puberty hits, what do we see?
Boys (46 XY DSD)

Clear signs of a boy turning into a man appear – narrow hips, broad shoulders, penis enlargement, Adam’s apple may appear, the voice deepens, and facial hair may develop. Muscles may thicken and body hair can increase. Breasts do not develop most of the time, and the vaginal entrance remains atrophic (staying red, not pink – vaginal mucosa turns pink with oestrogen).

If you've believed yourself to be female from birth and been brought up as female and you then are told you are a male this must be a huge shock, I wonder if athletes like Semenya should have their own category?

does seem suspicious to me that a rare condition is so over represented in athletics

It doesn't seem that suspicious to me given that it appears to confer an advantage.