Caster Semenya out of world 5000m as Coe signals tougher female sport rules

[Helleofabore]

Sean Ingle’s article today is very clear on more than one point.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/21/caster-semenya-out-of-world-5000m-as-coe-signals-tougher-female-sport-rules

“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance,” he said.

“I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”

Coe insisted it was his responsibility to “protect the integrity of women’s sport”.

“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender,” he added. “Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.”

and then there was this below about Caster Semenya. No more tip toeing around. It is like the new wording being considered by Coe has led to sticking to facts.

Semenya had previously won the world title at 800m three times, including in her last appearance at London 2017, but is now barred from running international events from 400m to a mile unless she takes medication to reduce her testosterone levels.

That is because, as a 46 XY athlete with a difference of sex development, the Court of Arbitration of Sport has ruled that Semenya has an advantage over the female competitors against whom she races.

Excellent posts Misstache, thank you.

Oh come on, @IsItShining, you don't think @antifascist has actually read Misstache's excellent post?

Just AF's morning goad.

It’s not even a goad any more, it’s just pitiable how inane that comment was.

TRAs usually tie themselves in knots to support Semenya competing in women’s competition, it’s funny.

@Misstache
Brilliant. As another WOC, thanks so much for setting this out far more clearly than I could.
These cases were picked up by cheek swab tests in the past - elite women athletes then had a "passport" proving that they were female. This system was extremely popular with women as it was a one-off procedure and minimally invasive. And then it was stopped. If we still had it, the situation with Semenya et al could not have arisen. No genital checks required.

on the offchance that you're being sincere, here's a simplified comparison table. athletes like Semenya (third row) imo have, overall, a weaker case for inclusion in female sport than a trans woman on t blockers.

no points for correctly pointing out my misspelling of 'ambiguous'.

@puffyisgood
I'm going to have to disagree. Wrt this particular DSD, the cases are exactly as strong as each other ie no case at all for including males in the female category.

I don't disagree as such but do think it's worth teasing out the differences between the various cases and hence the reasons behind a verdict, so would put it myself more along the lines of:

trans woman on T blockers - exceptionally weak case for competing with women;

46 XY male - little to no case for competing with women;

trans woman, unmedicated - zero case for competing with women.

Yes. But it was a field of highly-experienced women and Seyni, who it's been said only started to train seriously in 2017, wasn't far behind Asher-Smith. Thompson-Herah (200m Olympic champion) was way down the field.

Then you are mistaken as you usually are.

the DSD athlete Mboma was injured, she's seemingly the fastest of the lot, last year she ran really good times at an unfamiliar distance with a fairly ragged technique and by the looks of her has plenty of room to pile on more muscle mass, even at 200m (she's a natural 400m specialist) she'll imo almost certainly break world records if her wings aren't clipped somehow.

World Championships 2022
PLACE PRIZE MONEY
Gold $70,000
Silver $35,000
Bronze $22,000
4th $16,000
5th $11,000
6th $7000
7th $6000
8th $5000

there isn’t a huge amount of money in athletics so it’s sad when some females miss out on what should have been theirs

Why? Look at CS. Born into a very poor family. Sent away to live with a relative. Finds out very early on in life that they are good at running, targeted by a sports coach (who as stated upthread is very common practice) realises that they could escape their poverty, have untold wealth as long as they run in the women’s races - which, as they’re going through male puberty, almost certainly means they’ll win on the world stage.
Some DSDs are more common in various areas of Africa than others because they're linked to inherited recessive genes rather than being a complete anomaly. If you were CS, wouldn’t you do exactly what they did?

For someone born into poverty, this is a tremendous amount of money.

Transwomen on T blockers have benefitted from male puberty. So no matter how much you ask them to reduce their testosterone, they will still have a massive advantage over females.

Do you have any idea why cheek swabs were stopped? It seems like such a no brainer. Such an easy way to determine sex. And, of course, you only have to do it once.

I thought you were obsessed with genitals as being the defining characteristic of gender identity…

Amazing. Dozens of woman-hours spent responding to him, patiently and not so patiently explaining, and he comes out with this, proving every single word of it whistled right through his empty head. I know, it’s for the lurkers. But, wow.

Were cheek swabs stopped as an early sally of TRA activism, before they went for a full frontal assault? I remember reading an article about a CAIS ski jumper who was caught out by it and it made her life difficult.

That article suggested cheek swabs were stopped because of CAIS cases but I have my doubts, we’ve seen how the slow chipping away has worked in other domains.

Not exactly. There are places where 5-ARD is relatively common due to intermarriage (the Dominican Republic is one & I believe Semenya’s home region is another) and the condition is known as “penis at 12” - because when male puberty hits the external genitalia becomes a whole lot more virilized all of a sudden.

Misstache, thank you, really informative posts. And sorry about your race, it is indeed an experience that no male athlete can even imagine. I mean, I find getting out of bed on 1st day of period struggle enough, let alone going and actually exercising ...

Yes, Seb's not quite there yet. But still good that he's taking a firm stance.

@Datun and @TastefulRainbowUnicorn
I also read that it was because of CAIS cases, but I think that was an excuse - as I said before, the women athletes loved the sex passports. What I'm not clear on is how or when the fix for DSDs became suppression of circulating testosterone rather than examination of the degree of virilisation. At some stage this issue was conflated with GRS. Sorry not to be of more help!

I also suspect there could be quite a lot of pressure of different kinds applied to a young person in this position. Taking care of your family, pressure from them, pressure from your country, it wouldn't be something to sneeze at.

It’s not only athletics. Zambian women's football captain Barbra Banda has been dropped from the team. So have Rachel Nachula and Racheal Kundananji and one other. All apparently for 'medical reasons' around 'naturally-overly high testosterone'.

i suppose i mostly agree.

T blockers do make a difference - it's significant that the DSD athletes, to a [forgive the expression] man, all chose to move away from their preferred distances rather than taking the meds.

This said, Semenya ran one of her best ever times, and a gold medal, at London 2012, whilst on medication.

I'm not familiar enough with the other cases to comment but in Semenya's case I half suspect that what she particularly dislikes about synthetic female hormones is, rather than the modest performance impact the wider 'feminising' effect they have on her body - based on the available evidence it seems likely that Semenya, off the track, is quite a macho man.