Caster Semenya out of world 5000m as Coe signals tougher female sport rules

[Helleofabore]

Sean Ingle’s article today is very clear on more than one point.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/21/caster-semenya-out-of-world-5000m-as-coe-signals-tougher-female-sport-rules

“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance,” he said.

“I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”

Coe insisted it was his responsibility to “protect the integrity of women’s sport”.

“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender,” he added. “Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.”

and then there was this below about Caster Semenya. No more tip toeing around. It is like the new wording being considered by Coe has led to sticking to facts.

Semenya had previously won the world title at 800m three times, including in her last appearance at London 2017, but is now barred from running international events from 400m to a mile unless she takes medication to reduce her testosterone levels.

That is because, as a 46 XY athlete with a difference of sex development, the Court of Arbitration of Sport has ruled that Semenya has an advantage over the female competitors against whom she races.

I meant to say, Werkwuka Getachew won silver in her first year of doing the steeplechase - having competed in previous years at 800m

I thought this was pretty clear as well.
"In 2019 when her case came to Cas, it also stated that “athletes with 46 XY DSD are ‘gonadally male’ meaning they have functioning testes that produce sperm and testosterone levels within the normal male range”."

Rather than the coyly worded and somewhat lacking in details "woman with a naturally high level of testosterone".

Nice strong wording. He’ll not be able to reverse ferret that easily. Good

I'm not an athlete. But it seems unusual to me that athletes are successfully able to swap disciplines / distances to quite such the extent that they are doing, and still be competitive? It's almost as if there is some advantage. And I agree with a pp, why was it decided that the advantage disappears at distances less than 400m or over a mile?

I suspect based on the comments attributed to him in the rest of the article what Lord Coe means by testosterone is shorthand for ‘testosterone exposure during male puberty’ rather than being under the clearly false impression that testosterone levels at any given time are what is important. And yes, he could be clearer using sex not gender.

However, this is a massive step forward and for someone as high profile and influential as he is to make the comment regarding “second rate sociologists” (anyone else thinking of our name changing cyclist?) is extraordinary.

Was second Alec. Hadn’t seen it but just watched on YouTube.

am saying nothing either.

Oh just saw your update Alec.

yeah when you watch it unbelievable

goes from 800 a totally different race to getting a silver in the steeplechase

Sshhh @Helleofabore , we dont talk about agent exploitation or shocking health care in pregnancy and birth in relation to DSD athletes! We have to pretend believe that these athletes didn’t know they were DSD until they were actual adults running in actual international competitions.

I often worry that the issue is being inflated by some sort of nefarious actors. The sports issue is really quite easy to settle, as Seb Coe points out, and most sporting bodies seem to have realised that all this "activism" was bollocks and completely unsupported by facts. OTOH, we now have in the US this politician who is encouraging transition of children both medically and surgically. I find the money involved in transition disconcerting, it makes me wonder how many pharma or medical lobby groups are involved.

The decision to stop dsd athletes competing in womens middle distances but not sprint or long distance is because that's what the court of arbitration in sport ruled on. The court heard evidence about middle distsnce running because those were the events that senenya & the others ran in. The ruling barred them from those events but the court hadn't heard evidence about short and long distances so couldn't rule.

why was it decided that the advantage disappears at distances less than 400m or over a mile?

I believe it has to do with the races that were ‘clearly’ being won with these advantages. Iirc there was some ‘hair splitting’ because it was unclear there was an advantage or not…. My memory could be wrong.

And yes…. Remarkable really how some athletes can quickly (matter of a couple or few months) change events and win medal places at world championships. Like they have some special power…

Agree.
CAIS sufferers will never masculinise, even when given exogenous synthetic male hormones, they simply cannot respond to it and will never have a male puberty or male sexual characteristics. That is why a great deal of these people are raised and live as girls and women. Although XY they are to all intents and purposes female bodily, no virulisation ever takes place.

Caster, however, does respond to testosterone (you just have to look at the face and physique to see that). Caster is XY and has 5ARD.

You would be surprised how many people don't know this though, many many people people think Caster is a biological female who just happens to have higher levels of testosterone.
I has a very interesting debate with someone on another forum about this, she insisted Caster was female and that not allowing her to run based on testosterone was the same as excluding women with PCOS if it roduces excess testosterone.
She then went on to say that PCOS people are "considered female" and it is a DSD.

As someone with PCOS you can imagine my reply.

So much misinformation.

*produces

As someone with PCOS you can imagine my reply.

🙄

It is important wording that Coe supported in the FINA decision. He was clear that he supported words describing a body as having the benefit of any virulisation at puberty.

That clearly draws a line between CAIS and other differences in sex development.

@BoredofthisCrap7 . So, males are definitely women. But women with health issues may not be women. Anti-reality propaganda strikes again.

Outwardly female phenotype.

I always wonder when people say this about Semenya how closely they’ve looked! Or is it just a euphemism for “no penis?”

There’s been a lot of deliberate obfuscation and propaganda about Semenya’s background and upbringing, but I think it’s worth pointing out that Semenya always wore the boy’s uniform at school, and Semenya’s own running coach was very surprised to learn that Semenya was “a girl” at the age of 16 or so, when an opportunity to compete in women’s races arose.

We’ve been conditioned to feel pity and that it’s almost bad taste to question things too closely. But when you do look into things even a little bit, it’s apparent that the vague impression you get from the propaganda, of a confused sad person who thought she was female till genetic testing, isn’t accurate.

And speaking of great misreads…

twitter.com/placesteph/status/1550039983511277569?s=21&t=M2k7YX9qhU4rnAXlHNeHPA

Well, that was a quick read. We are not talking about trans people in that tweet. We are meaning natal females. The simple fact is natal females will be excluded from sports in future.

Although, at least there is no forced teaming in this tweet between those with differences in sex development and trans people. The rest I shall not point out. We can all see it.

”second-rate sociologists*

😁😁😁 more of this, please!

I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue.

I wonder who he could possibly mean.

‘But when you do look into things even a little bit, it’s apparent that the vague impression you get from the propaganda, of a confused sad person who thought she was female till genetic testing, isn’t accurate.’

It is odd, isn’t it? Who knows, and how do they know? It’s uncomfortable asking these questions but they have to be asked.

I’m also curious about why most of the athletes considered to be competing with DSDs seem to be from African countries. What’s going on?

I think it takes the older generation to talk sense like this They have the clear sight and no mind fuckery woke shite.

achilles

Poor access to appropriate health care, and agents who actively seek out athletes such as these.

I wonder who the second rate sociologists are?
re. Age as a dividing category in sport , he should have used the example of a 20 year old competing with a 10 year old rather than an Olympian competing with a 14 yr old as Olympian’s can be 14. You could in theory be any age )if good enough) to be at the Olympics. Skateboarder occasion seem to be children for example.

So is it the case that you can compete in female or male professional competitions without presenting proof of natal sex? And the only way in which athletes competing with DSDs and potentially in the wrong sex category are picked up is by outlying performance and appearance? Then they are asked to submit to genetic testing?