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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya out of world 5000m as Coe signals tougher female sport rules

225 replies

Helleofabore · 21/07/2022 08:27

Sean Ingle’s article today is very clear on more than one point.

amp.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/21/caster-semenya-out-of-world-5000m-as-coe-signals-tougher-female-sport-rules

“We’ve always been guided by the science, and the science is pretty clear: we know that testosterone is the key determinant in performance,” he said.

“I’m really over having any more of these discussions with second-rate sociologists who sit there trying to tell me or the science community that there may be some issue. There isn’t. Testosterone is the key determinant in performance.”

Coe insisted it was his responsibility to “protect the integrity of women’s sport”.

“We have two categories in our sport: one is age and one is gender,” he added. “Age because we think it’s better that Olympic champions don’t run against 14-year-olds in community sports. And gender because if you don’t have a gender separation, no woman would ever win another sporting event.”

and then there was this below about Caster Semenya. No more tip toeing around. It is like the new wording being considered by Coe has led to sticking to facts.

Semenya had previously won the world title at 800m three times, including in her last appearance at London 2017, but is now barred from running international events from 400m to a mile unless she takes medication to reduce her testosterone levels.

That is because, as a 46 XY athlete with a difference of sex development, the Court of Arbitration of Sport has ruled that Semenya has an advantage over the female competitors against whom she races.

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 21/07/2022 20:17

Thank you, @QuattroFromagio! That's pretty much exactly what I read, though I was sure it referred to Caster's home country.

When you Google search absolutely everything is toeing the 'poor Caster, victim of misogynoir' line.

Helleofabore · 21/07/2022 21:37

Perhaps this will be helpful re CAIS. It is from the FINA document.

In making an assessment, an Independent Expert will take into account all relevant and reliable evidence that goes to establishing whether or not the Eligibility Conditions are satisfied, including (without limitation):

a. evidence as to whether or not an athlete wishing to compete in the women’s category has complete androgen insensitivity;

b. evidence as to whether or not an athlete wishing to compete in the women’s category suppressed male puberty beginning at Tanner Stage Two or before age 12;

Page 17.

resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf

Let’s not forget that FINA has proposed an ‘open’ category so that these athletes can swim in a category that is not dictated by being male or female.

Such a proposal may be less attractive to those male athletes who are currently twisting the rules to suit themselves and conveniently crossing to new events and still winning places.

OP posts:
puffyisgood · 21/07/2022 21:49

On close examination (and top level sports, where livelihoods are on the line, merit close examination) Semenya is unambiguously, unambiguously, male, there's not a shred of doubt.

Even in you were to incorrectly accept that CS is 'biologically female', it's worth noting that (s)he appears to identify/'live as a man' off the track... listen to her casual sexism in the interview linked below, and check out the wedding picture in which CS's wife rests her hand affectionately on CS's chest... that pose would be obscene if CS was any kind of woman.

Caster Semenya out of world 5000m as Coe signals tougher female sport rules
picklemewalnuts · 21/07/2022 22:18

It's shocking, isn't it, how unambiguously male Caster is, except when in a race?

puffyisgood · 21/07/2022 22:32

This reply has been deleted

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Misstache · 21/07/2022 23:54

The current 800m Olympic champion is Athing Mu, a woman of South-Sudanese descent. If Semenya were still running, it is likely a dark-skinned African woman would have been deprived of her deserved accolades and financial benefits, as happened to a generation of runners. This has nothing to do with race. The indoor 800m champion is a Black woman, Ajee Wilson. The Olympics bronze medalist is a Black woman, Raevyn Rogers who would have finished off the podium.

Mboma, a DSD athlete who moved down to the 200m at the Olympics, won silver, beating a Black woman, Gabby Thomas. Shelley-Ann Fraser-Price, a Black woman, finished 4th. Two African woman were the next two qualifiers kept out of the finals by Mboma and Masilingi, another DSD athlete.

An African woman just came third in the steeple, beaten by a suspected DSD athlete, Getachew. Virtually every woman who is deprived of placement, medals, and finals are African and Black females, not “feminine white European women.” All of these Black and African women with various bodies, shades, musculature etc. are well within the testosterone limits as they are all natal women.

It is an extremely racist argument that African and Black women are naturally masculine and in fact are actually men. This narrative reaches back into enslavement, where Black women were deemed as manly beasts, able to work long hours in the fields as they were not real women like white women. The removal of Black women’s children in slavery was justified because unlike white women, black women do not have natural maternal feelings. The rape of black women was justified because black women are not real women but exotic hypersexual beasts. These narratives persist today in ideas that black women are unfit mothers, leading to our children being taken by child welfare; that black girls “look grown” meaning they can’t be raped; that black women are angry, emasculating, can’t get a man because of our attitude, are to blame for crime committed by our children, etc. There is a long, deeply dehumanizing history and contemporary reality of removing black women from womanhood. Black women from Serena Williams to Michelle Obama are accused of being men.

Anyone who argues that African women are actually men unlike feminine white European women who are actual women is contributing to the violence against clack women across the globe.

The DSD Semenya has is prominent in some areas as it shows up due to consanguinity. It is also prominent in areas of Pakistan, Palestine, Turkey, India, and other areas not in Sub-Saharan Africa. The reason why it is African athletes currently is because, taking advantage of the lack of medical care and records in remote rural regions, exploitative Federations and countries have decided to game the system by deliberately scouting and presenting these athletes in female competition for money. They have incentive to do this as currently they can get away with it. In contrast, when Dutee Chand sued, she also sued the Indian Federation as they, also having high rates of these athletes, remove them from national and international competition. The lack of action on Semenya, and the continued loopholes of allowing DSD athletes in other events has encouraged these athletes to be exploited, humiliated on a world stage as people speculate, and is completely unkind to them as well.

There are cases before the 1960s of European athletes being identified and removed; with modern medicine, however, it is basically impossible for someone not to be diagnosed if not in infancy, at least by puberty when the child goes through typical male puberty, does not menstruate or develop breasts, etc. Race and origin has nothing to do with why African athletes are at the centre of this. It is not about beauty standards, femininity or “jealous white women who can’t win” - East African athletes have dominated distance events for decades now, and West African descended athletes dominate the sprints. If this were about jealous white women losing, targeting rare DSD athletes instead of the hundreds of Black female athletes ruling podiums and records would be a silly strategy.

Many Sub-Saharan African countries are now cracking down as seen by the removal of these athletes from the All-Africa football cup, an event that literally has nothing to do with white Europeans.

Misstache · 22/07/2022 00:07

Also, documents have shown us that SA had tested Semenya before her first worlds, and knew she was DSD. They deliberately entered her, knowing that it would be much harder to remove her after the fact. They then deliberately started a propaganda campaign that this was racism against an African woman who didn’t fit white European standards of femininity. Their deliberate actions are what led to the awful public exposure which could have been avoided.

Media continually misreported the issue, pretending this was a “cis woman with naturally high testosterone” and not a genetically XY male who has been through male puberty, and has testosterone levels of a typical male. Women are not the absence of a penis, a very sexist view.

Dreikanter · 22/07/2022 00:14

Misstache · 21/07/2022 23:54

The current 800m Olympic champion is Athing Mu, a woman of South-Sudanese descent. If Semenya were still running, it is likely a dark-skinned African woman would have been deprived of her deserved accolades and financial benefits, as happened to a generation of runners. This has nothing to do with race. The indoor 800m champion is a Black woman, Ajee Wilson. The Olympics bronze medalist is a Black woman, Raevyn Rogers who would have finished off the podium.

Mboma, a DSD athlete who moved down to the 200m at the Olympics, won silver, beating a Black woman, Gabby Thomas. Shelley-Ann Fraser-Price, a Black woman, finished 4th. Two African woman were the next two qualifiers kept out of the finals by Mboma and Masilingi, another DSD athlete.

An African woman just came third in the steeple, beaten by a suspected DSD athlete, Getachew. Virtually every woman who is deprived of placement, medals, and finals are African and Black females, not “feminine white European women.” All of these Black and African women with various bodies, shades, musculature etc. are well within the testosterone limits as they are all natal women.

It is an extremely racist argument that African and Black women are naturally masculine and in fact are actually men. This narrative reaches back into enslavement, where Black women were deemed as manly beasts, able to work long hours in the fields as they were not real women like white women. The removal of Black women’s children in slavery was justified because unlike white women, black women do not have natural maternal feelings. The rape of black women was justified because black women are not real women but exotic hypersexual beasts. These narratives persist today in ideas that black women are unfit mothers, leading to our children being taken by child welfare; that black girls “look grown” meaning they can’t be raped; that black women are angry, emasculating, can’t get a man because of our attitude, are to blame for crime committed by our children, etc. There is a long, deeply dehumanizing history and contemporary reality of removing black women from womanhood. Black women from Serena Williams to Michelle Obama are accused of being men.

Anyone who argues that African women are actually men unlike feminine white European women who are actual women is contributing to the violence against clack women across the globe.

The DSD Semenya has is prominent in some areas as it shows up due to consanguinity. It is also prominent in areas of Pakistan, Palestine, Turkey, India, and other areas not in Sub-Saharan Africa. The reason why it is African athletes currently is because, taking advantage of the lack of medical care and records in remote rural regions, exploitative Federations and countries have decided to game the system by deliberately scouting and presenting these athletes in female competition for money. They have incentive to do this as currently they can get away with it. In contrast, when Dutee Chand sued, she also sued the Indian Federation as they, also having high rates of these athletes, remove them from national and international competition. The lack of action on Semenya, and the continued loopholes of allowing DSD athletes in other events has encouraged these athletes to be exploited, humiliated on a world stage as people speculate, and is completely unkind to them as well.

There are cases before the 1960s of European athletes being identified and removed; with modern medicine, however, it is basically impossible for someone not to be diagnosed if not in infancy, at least by puberty when the child goes through typical male puberty, does not menstruate or develop breasts, etc. Race and origin has nothing to do with why African athletes are at the centre of this. It is not about beauty standards, femininity or “jealous white women who can’t win” - East African athletes have dominated distance events for decades now, and West African descended athletes dominate the sprints. If this were about jealous white women losing, targeting rare DSD athletes instead of the hundreds of Black female athletes ruling podiums and records would be a silly strategy.

Many Sub-Saharan African countries are now cracking down as seen by the removal of these athletes from the All-Africa football cup, an event that literally has nothing to do with white Europeans.

Excellent appraisal of where we are now, thank you.

Misstache · 22/07/2022 00:28

Also, Lornah Salpeter just won a bronze in the women’s marathon. She moved to Israel from Kenya as a nanny. She had never run, but began running for her health and met her husband who began training her. She was only able to run about 50 miles a week, half of what elite marathoners run. She improved steadily over the years. In Tokyo, she was in medal contention until late in the race but she had her period and was forced to drop out due to cramps. This medal is the long culmination of many years struggling to the top.

This is what actual FEMALE athletes go through. Earlier at worlds, the camera zoomed in on Dina Asher-Smith and showed her period had stained her. It is in fact very common that the stress of racing brings our periods on: I ran a race last month and, surprise, surprise my period started hours before the race leading to hours of vomiting and cramps right up to the start line. No male athlete has to fight through this!

Helleofabore · 22/07/2022 00:28

Thank you misstache.

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Helleofabore · 22/07/2022 00:31

Misstache · 22/07/2022 00:28

Also, Lornah Salpeter just won a bronze in the women’s marathon. She moved to Israel from Kenya as a nanny. She had never run, but began running for her health and met her husband who began training her. She was only able to run about 50 miles a week, half of what elite marathoners run. She improved steadily over the years. In Tokyo, she was in medal contention until late in the race but she had her period and was forced to drop out due to cramps. This medal is the long culmination of many years struggling to the top.

This is what actual FEMALE athletes go through. Earlier at worlds, the camera zoomed in on Dina Asher-Smith and showed her period had stained her. It is in fact very common that the stress of racing brings our periods on: I ran a race last month and, surprise, surprise my period started hours before the race leading to hours of vomiting and cramps right up to the start line. No male athlete has to fight through this!

Flowers for you.

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Helleofabore · 22/07/2022 00:51

www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/east-german-track-coach-ekkart-arbeit-caught-caster-semenya-gender-controversy-article-1.397564

I saw the name Ekkart Arbeit mentioned on twitter. Some things fall into place when you realise that he was involved in selecting and coaching Semenya. It may be pure speculation but how many others has he ‘selected’ as well?

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MangyInseam · 22/07/2022 01:50

CharlieAndTooManyCharacters · 21/07/2022 17:22

Given that caster does not actually have female genitalia, it was probably ambiguous right from the outset. But they went with assigning female sex because there was no observable penis.

I doubt the results of chromosome testing for elite sport were a surprise in the least.

As I understand it the issue with genitalia isn't that simple. It's not like there is just a blank with no penis, non-virulized males can look like female genitals or somewhat ambiguous. As I believe can females who have had some kinds of exposure to testosterone in the womb.

I may be wrong but as I understand it that is why where there aren't doctors on the scene at birth babies with kinds of dsds end up incorrectly assigned the wrong sex.

ApplesandBunions · 22/07/2022 06:12

The current 800m Olympic champion is Athing Mu, a woman of South-Sudanese descent. If Semenya were still running, it is likely a dark-skinned African woman would have been deprived of her deserved accolades and financial benefits, as happened to a generation of runners. This has nothing to do with race. The indoor 800m champion is a Black woman, Ajee Wilson. The Olympics bronze medalist is a Black woman, Raevyn Rogers who would have finished off the podium.

Exactly.

In addition, it's not like there aren't people with DSDs in Europe and North America. If Semenya had been able to continue competing and there had been no rule change, we'd have seen more of them on more teams. It would've been global. Does anyone really think eg China and Russia wouldn't have been proactive in searching for and training suitable candidates?

Signalbox · 22/07/2022 07:10

Misstache · 21/07/2022 23:54

The current 800m Olympic champion is Athing Mu, a woman of South-Sudanese descent. If Semenya were still running, it is likely a dark-skinned African woman would have been deprived of her deserved accolades and financial benefits, as happened to a generation of runners. This has nothing to do with race. The indoor 800m champion is a Black woman, Ajee Wilson. The Olympics bronze medalist is a Black woman, Raevyn Rogers who would have finished off the podium.

Mboma, a DSD athlete who moved down to the 200m at the Olympics, won silver, beating a Black woman, Gabby Thomas. Shelley-Ann Fraser-Price, a Black woman, finished 4th. Two African woman were the next two qualifiers kept out of the finals by Mboma and Masilingi, another DSD athlete.

An African woman just came third in the steeple, beaten by a suspected DSD athlete, Getachew. Virtually every woman who is deprived of placement, medals, and finals are African and Black females, not “feminine white European women.” All of these Black and African women with various bodies, shades, musculature etc. are well within the testosterone limits as they are all natal women.

It is an extremely racist argument that African and Black women are naturally masculine and in fact are actually men. This narrative reaches back into enslavement, where Black women were deemed as manly beasts, able to work long hours in the fields as they were not real women like white women. The removal of Black women’s children in slavery was justified because unlike white women, black women do not have natural maternal feelings. The rape of black women was justified because black women are not real women but exotic hypersexual beasts. These narratives persist today in ideas that black women are unfit mothers, leading to our children being taken by child welfare; that black girls “look grown” meaning they can’t be raped; that black women are angry, emasculating, can’t get a man because of our attitude, are to blame for crime committed by our children, etc. There is a long, deeply dehumanizing history and contemporary reality of removing black women from womanhood. Black women from Serena Williams to Michelle Obama are accused of being men.

Anyone who argues that African women are actually men unlike feminine white European women who are actual women is contributing to the violence against clack women across the globe.

The DSD Semenya has is prominent in some areas as it shows up due to consanguinity. It is also prominent in areas of Pakistan, Palestine, Turkey, India, and other areas not in Sub-Saharan Africa. The reason why it is African athletes currently is because, taking advantage of the lack of medical care and records in remote rural regions, exploitative Federations and countries have decided to game the system by deliberately scouting and presenting these athletes in female competition for money. They have incentive to do this as currently they can get away with it. In contrast, when Dutee Chand sued, she also sued the Indian Federation as they, also having high rates of these athletes, remove them from national and international competition. The lack of action on Semenya, and the continued loopholes of allowing DSD athletes in other events has encouraged these athletes to be exploited, humiliated on a world stage as people speculate, and is completely unkind to them as well.

There are cases before the 1960s of European athletes being identified and removed; with modern medicine, however, it is basically impossible for someone not to be diagnosed if not in infancy, at least by puberty when the child goes through typical male puberty, does not menstruate or develop breasts, etc. Race and origin has nothing to do with why African athletes are at the centre of this. It is not about beauty standards, femininity or “jealous white women who can’t win” - East African athletes have dominated distance events for decades now, and West African descended athletes dominate the sprints. If this were about jealous white women losing, targeting rare DSD athletes instead of the hundreds of Black female athletes ruling podiums and records would be a silly strategy.

Many Sub-Saharan African countries are now cracking down as seen by the removal of these athletes from the All-Africa football cup, an event that literally has nothing to do with white Europeans.

Really interesting post. Thanks for writing. All those women who have been pushed off the podium or prevented from qualifying must be so relieved.

Clymene · 22/07/2022 07:36

@Misstache - superb posts. Thank you so clearly articulating the wider context.

picklemewalnuts · 22/07/2022 07:36

I'm still shocked by the success of the misinformation campaign that has kept Caster at the front all this time, despite their very obvious ineligibility.

Did the journos do no due diligence?

Wonderful posts from Misstache, thank you!

Tabasco007 · 22/07/2022 07:53

Thanks for this thread everyone, fascinating and informative to read! @Misstache thanks for your posts.

riesenrad · 22/07/2022 08:06

Glad to see that DAS won a medal ahead of Seyni in the 200m (and the first two podium spots taken by actual women, too).

riesenrad · 22/07/2022 08:07

@Misstache thanks for your posts from me too

loislovesstewie · 22/07/2022 08:16

@Misstache another vote for your very thorough and illuminating posts. Many thanks.

antifascist · 22/07/2022 08:18

Make your minds up/ I thought you were obsessed with genitals as being the defining characteristic of gender identity…

CharlieAndTooManyCharacters · 22/07/2022 08:20

antifascist · 22/07/2022 08:18

Make your minds up/ I thought you were obsessed with genitals as being the defining characteristic of gender identity…

It’s amazing just how many levels of misrepresentation are going on there. 🤣

QuattroFromagio · 22/07/2022 08:28

Nothing to do with gender identity. This is about biological sex and access to women's sports. Trans isssues are a whole other thing and not related to this. A biological woman can identify how she likes and still take part in women's sports.

IsItShining · 22/07/2022 08:38

antifascist · 22/07/2022 08:18

Make your minds up/ I thought you were obsessed with genitals as being the defining characteristic of gender identity…

How you can read Misstache’s post and follow with that inanity is baffling. I think you need to read and learn. I would say ‘educate yourself’ but that phrase is too snide by now.

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