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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kellie Jay Keen and Tucker Carlson of Fox News

348 replies

concernedfriend500 · 20/05/2022 09:40

I used to admire Kellie Jay Keen for her staunch defence of women's rights and her refusal to bow down to the bullies. But I'm so over her now. Last night I watched one of her YouTube videos and she praised Tucker Carlson to the skies, saying what what a good guy he is. For those of you who don't know, Carlson is a right wing troll who has been accused of being a white supremacist. He presents an insanely popular talk show on US Fox News, on which KJL has appeared on several times. Carlson also pushes the "great replacement" theory and no-one with progressive principles should have anything to do with him, let alone normalise his racism. My guess is that KJK has swallowed the "my enemy's enemy is my friend" line and is going down a dangerous rabbit hole. But I'm out.

OP posts:
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Clymene · 20/05/2022 09:42

That's nice dear

TinaYouFatLard · 20/05/2022 09:44

She won’t give a flying fuck.

teawamutu · 20/05/2022 09:44

Jolly good.

Over in I Think You'll Find It's A Bit More Complicated Than That World, I'll continue to accept that TC might be a douche in some (many) respects but he's right on this; that KJK has a perfect right to find him pleasant and use his platform; that 'progressive' people have so thoroughly dropped the ball on this issue that they have no fucking right whatsoever to complain when campaigners talk to people they don't approve of.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/05/2022 09:45

But I'm out

Glancing at your scant posting history on relevant topics, I wonder at the implication that we ought to miss your extensive and informed contributions to discussions on FWR.

NB: caught up in the Tribunal, I have minimal capacity for side-dramas and contriversies.

Lovelyricepudding · 20/05/2022 09:53

So you are objecting to KJK using an insanely popular talk show to get her message across? Why might you not want that? 🤔

Vanjive · 20/05/2022 09:57

Ta-ra TRA

NecessaryScene · 20/05/2022 09:59

For those of you who don't know, Carlson is a right wing troll who has been accused of being a white supremacist.

For those of you who don't know, Keen is a right wing troll who has been accused of being a racist transphobe.

Carlson also pushes the "great replacement" theory

You missed out the "has been accused of" there.

Some of us can spot the pattern that Carlson is being attacked because he gives people like KJK that are outside the mainstream airtime. Same sort of thing as Joe Rogan gets.

They end up massively misrepresented, because they are threats to the US "liberal" bubble, and people inside the US liberal bubble buy it.

I'm a long-time Glenn Greenwald fan, ever since his earliest days of blogging about the Iraq War, and he also now relies on Carlson to get mainstream airtime. I mainly hear about Carlson via him. Some relevant things, by and via him:

twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1526994299740733443

"Surprise! Tucker Carlson Draws the Most Democratic Viewers in Key Demo, Even Topping Rachel Maddow"

[MSNBC will need another explanation for his leading popularity beyond: "old white Republican men are racists"]

The Demented - and Selective - Game of Instantly Blaming Political Opponents For Mass Shootings

That Carlson was primarily responsible for the ten dead people in Buffalo was asserted despite the fact that there was no indication that Gendron even knew who Carlson was, that he had ever watched his show, that he was influenced by him in any way, or that he admired or even liked the Fox host. [...]

The attempt to blame Carlson for the Buffalo shootings depended entirely on one claim: Carlson has previously talked about and defended the view that immigration is a scheme to “replace” Americans, and this same view was central to Gendron's ideology. Again, even if this were true, it would amount to nothing more than a claim than the shooter shared key views with Carlson and other conservative pundits — exactly as Hodgkinson shared core views with Maddow and Sanders, or the numerous murderers who killed in the name of black nationalism shared the same views on the police and American history as any number of MSNBC hosts and Democratic Party politicians, or as Pim Fortuyn's killer shared core views with animal rights activists and defenders of Muslim equality (including me). But nobody is willing to apply such a framework consistently because it converts everyone with strong political views into murderers, or at least being guilty of inciting murder. [...]

To claim that Carlson ever said anything remotely like this or believes it is just an outright lie. Indeed, with great frequency, Carlson says that the priority of the U.S. Government should be protection of and concern for American citizens of all races. Tarrant and Gendron believe and explicitly say that any non-white citizen of a European country is automatically an “invader” who must be killed and/or deported to turn the country all-white. Carlson believes the exact opposite: that the proper citizenry of the United States is multi-racial and that Black Americans and Latin Americans and Asian-Americans are every bit as much U.S. citizens, with all of the same claims to rights and protections, as every other American citizen. His anti-immigration and "replacement” argument is aimed at the idea — one that had been long mainstream on the left until about a decade ago — that large, uncontrolled immigration harms American citizens who are already here. There is no racial hierarchy in Carlson's view of American citizenship and to claim that there is is nothing short of a defamatory lie.

And this thread:

twitter.com/ShantMM/status/1526265515840155649

The current liberal disinfo campaign is to make you think that talking about immigration and its demographic impact on the electorate — something liberals have enthusiastically done for decades — is now an off-limits conspiracy theory & anyone who engages in it should be censored

They are trying to make you think that doing this is engaging in something called "The Great Replacement Theory" so that they can tar their political opponents as extremists who spread racist conspiracy theories and disinformation.

As usual, the point of this is to spread their own disinformation in order to censor media and speech they don't like. [...]

Now, personally, I don't know that much about Carlson - only ever really having seen his interviews with people like KJK and Greenwald, and Kara Dansky. But nothing gives me any reason to trust the US left's characterisation of him any more than their characterisations of Rogan, or KJK, or anyone else. They're completely full of shit on all the people and things I know about, so I am assuming they're full of shit on Carlson too. (And, to a large extent, I'm trusting Greenwald here, as he's been consistently of good judgment for 20-odd years).

WithAnXXHere · 20/05/2022 09:59

Yes, KJK should only speak to pre-approved left wingers. She isn't being a good handmaiden by diverting from this rule!

After all, there's an abundance of left wing mediums just itching to give the gender critical view on feminism, aren't they?

NonnyMouse1337 · 20/05/2022 09:59

For those of you who don't know, Carlson is a right wing troll who has been accused of being a white supremacist.

So it's not actually been proven?

He presents an insanely popular talk show on US Fox News,

Any savvy campaigner should view such a popular show as an incredibly good opportunity to bring attention to their cause.

MidCenturyClegs · 20/05/2022 10:02

I always find it amusing that those who decry the fact that sex is binary are so hardline in their belief that political belief is binary.

DarleneSnell · 20/05/2022 10:04

teawamutu · 20/05/2022 09:44

Jolly good.

Over in I Think You'll Find It's A Bit More Complicated Than That World, I'll continue to accept that TC might be a douche in some (many) respects but he's right on this; that KJK has a perfect right to find him pleasant and use his platform; that 'progressive' people have so thoroughly dropped the ball on this issue that they have no fucking right whatsoever to complain when campaigners talk to people they don't approve of.

Absolutely. And I think "The enemy of my enemy..." approach is perfectly fair enough on this one, at least KJK is getting an outlet from someone with an audience (of perfectly reasonable people). You call him a right wing troll, maybe if others weren't such arrogant misogynists she'd have somewhere else to go. It is what it is.

axolotlfloof · 20/05/2022 10:23

Lovelyricepudding · 20/05/2022 09:53

So you are objecting to KJK using an insanely popular talk show to get her message across? Why might you not want that? 🤔

This.
KJK is single issue - women.
It is an extremely difficult issue to defend women's hard won rights.
She is amazing.
Obv TC is a twat.

axolotlfloof · 20/05/2022 10:26

WithAnXXHere · 20/05/2022 09:59

Yes, KJK should only speak to pre-approved left wingers. She isn't being a good handmaiden by diverting from this rule!

After all, there's an abundance of left wing mediums just itching to give the gender critical view on feminism, aren't they?

Totally.
KJK needs a voice in popular media.

DrBlackbird · 20/05/2022 10:27

I don’t rate TC either and despair of his ilk being performatively ‘controversial’ to get attention just like a FB algorithm. However, perhaps if KJK was getting warmly welcomed by the likes of say Oprah Winfrey in the US then she might not need to be using TC’s platform. My impression is, however, that many many health, educational, and psychological professionals in North America are so deep in believing positive affirmation that no ‘reasonable’ conversation is even possible. So on this particular issue, I don’t think it was KJK that was the first one to escalate the tone of the debate?

Cheekymaw · 20/05/2022 10:43

OP you have a big point. PP is a fantastic PR person and doesn't need these dodgy men with their dodgy(racist, classist, supremist) politics . I think KJK has done amazing stuff and really has got the message across to so many people . She doesn't need to do this and it discredits our cause. And don't call me a TRA as I've been fighting against gender ideology for almost 4 years. Calling GC women who have concerns about men who would put the likes of me( chronically unwell and skint) in some kinda work camp becoming involved in feminism. These men aren't in for us women and would happily take away every right we have .

sweetgrapes · 20/05/2022 10:50

These men aren't in for us women and would happily take away every right we have

That's the thing isn't it though... which men are in for us women? There's nobody really - as the domino effect across all responsible, respectable organisations shows.

NonnyMouse1337 · 20/05/2022 10:51

She doesn't need to do this and it discredits our cause.

There is no our cause.

The view that biological sex is real and an important part of human society is as commonplace as accepting the fact that the earth isn't flat.
People of all backgrounds and political persuasions have a right to be concerned by the imposition of a dogmatic ideology, especially when if affects children.

DysonSphere · 20/05/2022 10:51

This really frustrates me about MN but FWR in particular. This bloody relentless inability to see that women A) can think for themselves B) are diverse in their views C) are not all left leaning progressives D) Don't all think according to some sort of racially profiled group think.

I am a black woman. I like TC and I avidly watch Fox News. But then, I watch supposedly racist people I'm supposed to hate because I like to see for myself what they are saying. Strangely I often find that most of their views are reasonable. I have this uncanny (extremely unpopular it seems) ability to take what someone says on one topic, and leave what someone says on another. I have conservative views socially speaking, less so fiscally. I have developed and continue to develop my views as I age. As pretty much all average people do.

If you think for one second, you're going to achieve awareness of this fight by only addressing one side of the political spectrum...you go with that.

KJ fortunately is more intelligent than that. And I say that as someone who vehemently disagreed with her views of Kyle Rittenhouse.

Doesn't stop me seeing how brilliant and often right she is in other respects. Jeez.

FourTeaFallOut · 20/05/2022 10:52

No. Bollocks to all that OP. I'm able to agree with people on some things and disagree with them on others. So I'm going to credit her with the same powers of critical thinking that I assume for myself.

So I'll carry on agreeing with some things she says and disagreeing with her on others but I'm not going to put my fingers in my ears because she speaks to dislikeable people, remain civil when doing so and occasionally finding uncomfortable nodes of overlap. It use to be that being able to have these kinds of discussions was considered a marker of grown up thinking and the foundation of tolerance.

dolorsit · 20/05/2022 11:07

The problem is that any neutral or left wing platforms get pilloried for airing any views that are not full on TWAW. Even acknowledging the need for debate gets twisted into transphobia.

Signalbox · 20/05/2022 11:11

Detransitioner Helena Kerschner was also interviewed by TC.

She has also received criticism for doing so.

HK's reasons for doing the interview are that left wing outlets aren't interested. The left are still merrily pushing transition on children. She said that when left wing outlets are open to talking to her she will talk to them but in the mean time she wants to reach as many people as possible so that the harm of this can be uncovered and people know that there are organisations available to help.

Seems to make sense to me. And her interview has been watched 2.6 million times on YouTube.

twitter.com/lacroicsz/status/1515161860689043459

Kellie Jay Keen and Tucker Carlson of Fox News
DysonSphere · 20/05/2022 11:22

I watched that interview, it was a very sobering and important interview. Tell me where are CNN, MSNBC's etc going to pay attention and do something similar?

NecessaryScene · 20/05/2022 11:27

I watched that interview, it was a very sobering and important interview. Tell me where are CNN, MSNBC's etc going to pay attention and do something similar?

And that's part of the problem here - what I can see of Carlson from his demeanour in such interviews, and his choice of subject - bears absolutely no relationship to the caricature of him I hear from people like the OP.

Just as what I see of "TERF"s bears no relationship to the caricature of them I hear from other people in the same group.

Far too much "wolf" has been called for me to pay any serious attention to conspiracy-theory like rants about "white supremacists", "Nazis", etc.

Especially when you're talking about people presenting some of the highest-audience TV shows and podcasts!

The noise about them is proportionate to their extreme audience, not their extreme views.

The biggest targets for hate are high-audience moderates. People like J K Rowling, for example. Rowling is a moderate leftist, Carlson is a moderate rightist. And free-thinking moderates are the most dangerous, as they're someone people in a partisan bubble might listen to and hear things they're not supposed to here.

NecessaryScene · 20/05/2022 11:27

not supposed to here.

OMG. The shame.

RufusthefIoraImissingreindeer · 20/05/2022 11:31

I'm bored rigid of being told what to read and what to watch

And it's just on here, in the rest of my life people seem quite proud of getting their information from a variety of sources, and challenging their thoughts and attitudes

I agree with nonny I'm not in a cause, it's completely illogical to me to think that sex isn't important and there is no physical difference between males and females. I think that people who say that there are no differences are either lying for some weird reason or are as thick as shit

The ins and outs of gender whether its personality made up bollocks or absolute fact interests me a lot less