Grace Lavery on Woman’s Hour Today (7 April)

[CaveMum]

Why on earth I do not know, but the “delightful” Grace Lavery is on Woman’s Hour today.

This Grace Lavery

Threads about individuals are often the most tightly policed. The thread about Billy Bragg got deleted altogether, and he isn't even a woman. This one is potentially in danger of going the same way.

Sorry I was bored stiff listening to this and I (mentally not literally) switched off while washing up.

@LK1972

Yep, wrong pronouns in my deleted post, forgot we're not allowed to trust our ears and need to check everyone's pronouns before discussing their comments on the radio.

The book is about Grace's penis, there is no mystery about Grace's sex. Honestly, this is fucking ridiculous.

@tabbycatstripy

EB just said “A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Penis” on Woman’s Hour.

I just read the subtitle of the book to my mate. Her response?

"Only a bloke could come up with a phrase like that", accompanied by an eye roll.

Sums it all up really.

My post got deleted because I said
a) I'd never heard of GL but
b) assumed from her photo that she had a 'woman's penis'.

Both of these statements are true so why delete my post MN?

Only a bloke could come up with a phrase like that", accompanied by an eye roll

Grace stole this from Dave Eggers, whose novel was called 'A Heartbreaking work of Staggering Genius'.

I listened this afternoon. It was pretty hard going. EB gave GL quite a lot of space and GL filled it with a lot of tedious drivel which seemed to demonstrate huge gaps in GL's understanding of biology and history, total self-centredness and a complete inability to explain anything either concisely or clearly.

Grace is pretending to believe their own propaganda that TERFs are evil people who are a danger to trans people. Really women couldn't give a rats arse if GL wants to do a book tour of the UK. Grace is probably a bit annoyed that they are not getting more attention

I suspect you are right on target there.

Why on earth would anyone want to be 'protesting' a book like Lavery's? Do they honestly believe that their impenetrable drivel is worth the effort to protest? Do they think that protesting their gigs is going to change anything?

Or do they simply believe the falsehoods that feminists hate trans people so much that just one having events is so shocking that the event much be protested? Or the falsehoods that feminists will protest any trans event?

Because the last question feels a whole lot like projection.

Because no women's events seem to be able to run without trans protests these days, so they simply must believe that we all sit around planning protests to stop them meeting and disrupt any get togethers, because that is what they do.

I found this person's assertions to be coercive.

Opinions made into facts, no references. Said in an overly confident way.

I'm unsure how this person is an academic.

I'm sure Grace thinks it all went splendidly.

Emma was sharp to say "your opinion is" at the relevant places.

@Helleofabore

Grace is pretending to believe their own propaganda that TERFs are evil people who are a danger to trans people. Really women couldn't give a rats arse if GL wants to do a book tour of the UK. Grace is probably a bit annoyed that they are not getting more attention

I suspect you are right on target there.

Why on earth would anyone want to be 'protesting' a book like Lavery's? Do they honestly believe that their impenetrable drivel is worth the effort to protest? Do they think that protesting their gigs is going to change anything?

Or do they simply believe the falsehoods that feminists hate trans people so much that just one having events is so shocking that the event much be protested? Or the falsehoods that feminists will protest any trans event?

Because the last question feels a whole lot like projection.

Because no women's events seem to be able to run without trans protests these days, so they simply must believe that we all sit around planning protests to stop them meeting and disrupt any get togethers, because that is what they do.

If anyone wants to pay money to listen to that drivel then i wish them well. We all do surely?

Each to their own.

I'm with Bindel.

And this tweet contains the organic clip.

It's like something Asda would come up with in an attempt to copy Waitrose.

twitter.com/buddhawisdom/status/1512035135570395136?s=21&t=Ql23ddAP9UbnlaPzf3WRVg

Just listened on the podcast and I'm a bit perplexed to be honest. We had the intensly Frank and heartbreaking interview with Sarah Hawkins which clearly demonstrated the reality of female biology and why sex based rights and really listening to matter, and then we have this self absorbed, clueless fluff to follow it up.

I can't say I understand Grace's view any better than their infuriating interview on Heterodorx earlier this year.

They idea we can't understand what a woman is and sex based rights aren't necessarily can only come from a person who has never given any thought to the very real day to day existence of women.

I know there are some TW who do identify with women but it seems the most vocal TW only identify as women and ghats a huge disservice to TW and women alike.

I spent too much time at university having to listen to male persons who had no concept of how privileged the simple fact of their private educations made them to subject myself to “Prof” Dunning-Kruger’s nonsense. People who are genuinely top-of-their-field brilliant know how to make exceptionally complex concepts accessible & engaging; & how to adapt to meet the needs of their audience.

It’s always awkward when someone is so determined to prove they’re the cleverest person in the room - it’s so very crass. Lavery might harbour delusions of being a Wildean figure for our times (so many jokes could be made here re: Lavery’s absurd use of photoshop) but given their book title barely qualifies as pun (but is doubtless hilarious should one be a 12 year old boy) I’m not sure how they imagine that happening.

As regards Lavery’s comment about the Queen, it was both revolting & shameful - but then so is much of Lavery’s commentary & conduct. The ridiculous notion being a radfem = being a republican &/or wanting HMQ to die almost makes you embarrassed for Lavery - the same way you feel when someone falls over in public; or somehow gets looroll stuck to their shoe & creates a kind of Andrew puppy effect; or they have some form of clothing malfunction. The difference is that Lavery is jumping up & down & demanding attention for the nonsense Lavery spouts. It’s Lavery’s whole family tree right back to the very Garden of Eden I’m scarlet for, never mind their Ma.

Thank you to all the posters for the summaries and discussion. I missed the interview and am not sure if I can bring myself to listen as I expect it will wind me up.

These threads give me increasing confidence to stand my ground on this issue and defend legal protections for biological women.

@WarriorN

I'm with Bindel.

And this tweet contains the organic clip.

It's like something Asda would come up with in an attempt to copy Waitrose.

twitter.com/buddhawisdom/status/1512035135570395136?s=21&t=Ql23ddAP9UbnlaPzf3WRVg

Good grief, the absolute arrogance. And 'othering' of a group that apparently..... can't be named or defined other than that they're all absolutely wrong about their bodies, reality and thoughts.

Life is really too short to spend listening to all this wallowing around in verbiage and existentialist philosophy. It has no bearing on reality or real life.

So what GL is really saying is that she prefers life as a man with a man's body including a penis while taking female hormones. The hormones make her feel more fulfilled as a person. Which is fair enough (and I am happy to accept transwomen who live like that) but it doesn't make her a woman.

As a practicing Catholic I find taking the body and blood of Christ at communion gives me great peace and improves my life. It doesn't make me the Messiah.

Have they had Emma Hilton on yet? I think they need her.

I sort of found it funny because it was so ludicrous. But now I'm annoyed again.

One the one hand, what could be more peaking than following a harrowing interview that triply underlined in red the sex based oppression and discrimination women have to bear with
an incredibly self obsessed staggering penis lecturing women about the right way to (a) do feminism and (b) be a woman whilst employing twinkly laughs and "gosh I didn't mean to imply that" asides.

But those women had to repeatedly fight the system through their grief to hold maternity services accountable. Unimaginable, and words cannot express how much admiration I have for them. They are truly strong heroines who never should have had to fight.

GL, on the other hand is not admirable in any sense. It seems that transitioning doesn't remove the misogyny. Or clarify thinking. Imagine the gaslighting involved in being one of their female students. You might as well interview my cat about womanhood.

The fact that both things exist, and that the staggering penis has no shame, could not demonstrate any better what a shit deal women get because of our sex. We are unimportant in everything including our own biology, history and political activism.

Never heard of Grace, but the image is clearly a bloke in drag.

I think Nagel's 1970s bat thought experiment applies here. Nagel claimed that even if humans were able to metamorphose gradually into bats, our brains would not have been wired as a bat's since birth, so we would only ever be able to have a superficial experience of the life and behaviours of a bat, never the mindset of a bat. Consequently we could never know what it feels like to actually be a bat. I think the same is true here.

I've just read a sample of this chap's book on Amazon. Deranged.

It’s always awkward when someone is so determined to prove they’re the cleverest person in the room - it’s so very crass. Lavery might harbour delusions of being a Wildean figure for our times (so many jokes could be made here re: Lavery’s absurd use of photoshop) but given their book title barely qualifies as pun (but is doubtless hilarious should one be a 12 year old boy) I’m not sure how they imagine that happening.

I just tested it on a 12 year old boy. Result: 'I don't think it's that funny'.

@Mumsnut

'Word salad' is too kind a description.

Word porridge, maybe?

hey, don't diss porridge! healthy, wholesome, nourishing locally grown and very good value !

"word jizz"