‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

@CatherinaJTV

define woman without using the word 'woman'

sorry what?

Stop playing dumb. She’s asking you to define what a woman is, other than ‘someone that feels like a woman’. And you know it

My patience for the pretence that men are women is wearing really, really thin these days. They’re not, and they never will be. Some of us will pretend in certain circumstances, some of us will pretend in all circumstances, but that’s all it is, a pretence. Every single one of us knows this.

See, this is where "cis" would come in helpful for precision of discussion, ridiculous! You want to change the definition of a perfectly well understood word and then add a descriptor to make sure you know we’re not talking about the men you added….what happens when transwomen want to be called transciswomen? And on and on till we all rollover and one falls out? Who will be left? And just how long will they take in the toilet passing paper back and forth and complementing each other?

I don't mind trans women in changing rooms. I would somewhat mind intact ones that made that very obvious.

@LabMix

You absolutely haven’t answered *@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg’s question, @CatherinaJTV*

apologies if you were looking for chromosomes or gametes. I know I am right handed, because I feel most comfortable doing things with my right hand. I recommend you Ben Barres' Autobiography.

i'm waiting for you to convince me

you and I know I won't convince you. I've given you my answer. I am sorry if that doesn't convince you.

Why should the word "woman" (which is already TAKEN by the way) now mean anything other than what it has meant for centuries?

If men who identify as something other than what they are, want a word for themselves, they can jolly well make another one up, instead of demanding that we change our own language, pronouns and words to make them feel better.
CIS is a nonsense term made up by woke arseholes desperate to pander to men.
(Oh dear did I say that out loud?)

"Woman" means what it always has meant.
I don't want or need a stupid fucking prefix to state who and what I am.

now we know they can claim to be us and entire our spaces with a full lunchbox thats an entirely different kettle of jizz now isnt it.

Exactly. But we still were not asked.

I'm not worried about sharing with transwoman, I'm worried about sharing with men. Transwoman think they will be safe in women's spaces but they are fearful of men, who are now allowed into women's spaces.

ah, you can't answer then @CatherinaJTV ?

in which case I suggest you stop lecturing me about why I'm nasty for not wanting to share spaces where I'm vulnerable with men

come back when you can tell me in a convincing way why some of those men are women

@RVN123

Why should the word "woman" (which is already TAKEN by the way) now mean anything other than what it has meant for centuries?

If men who identify as something other than what they are, want a word for themselves, they can jolly well make another one up, instead of demanding that we change our own language, pronouns and words to make them feel better.
CIS is a nonsense term made up by woke arseholes desperate to pander to men.
(Oh dear did I say that out loud?)

"Woman" means what it always has meant.
I don't want or need a stupid fucking prefix to state who and what I am.

Exactly. But it has never been a thing to believe men literally change their sex. As recently as 2010 it was recognised in heavily researched legislation in the UK that it wasn’t the case. So it’s a very recent thing. Someone, coinciding with Stonewall adding the T a few years ago, has decided otherwise and people are suddenly going along with it. Why?

because they're women

So if you believe transwomen are women, how do you define “woman”?

Personally, as a woman, I define my sex as “adult human female”.

Transwomen are transwomen.

Oh, and don’t use “cis” to talk about women.

Gender is only a social construct. It is not a hard, biological fact. I can chose to not believe in gender and just think people express their sexuality in different ways.

I know I'm a woman as I can see my vulva and breasts, and my wider pelvis. This was confirmed when I grew two children in my womb.

I have literally no idea what 'feeling comfortable as a woman' means. Can you explain?

When I am warm and not in pain and not hungry, I feel comfortable but in no different way to how my OH feels comfortable so not sure that it can be said that in those instance I feel comfortable as a woman and he feels comfortable as a man.

To take your analogy, when I write with my right-hand, I know I am right handed. I don't, however, feel like I am a right-handed woman in that instance. It's a better analogy with my description of a woman: I know I am a woman as I have a woman's body.

When people expect me to conform to female stereotypes that pisses me off. Does that mean I don't feel comfortable as a woman?

@CatherinaJTV so you can’t answer the question of what a woman is yet you’re welcoming men into their spaces 🤡

@5zeds

See, this is where "cis" would come in helpful for precision of discussion, ridiculous! You want to change the definition of a perfectly well understood word and then add a descriptor to make sure you know we’re not talking about the men you added….what happens when transwomen want to be called transciswomen? And on and on till we all rollover and one falls out? Who will be left? And just how long will they take in the toilet passing paper back and forth and complementing each other?

yes yes, and if we have marriage equality, people will want to marry their toasters

but many trans women will refer to themselves as women, and across this thread, my "woman"hood was doubted, so the "c word" adds precision. It is positively weirder to say "were you born with a vagina".

Trans woman should call themselves trans woman and then we don't get the confusion. Your womanhood was doubted due to the confusion caused by men wanting to call themselves women. Cis confers an identity most women don't have - feel free to engage with that point.

Except in this case on the space of a few years we’ve had women and then female colonised.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I know I'm a woman as I can see my vulva and breasts, and my wider pelvis. This was confirmed when I grew two children in my womb.

I have literally no idea what 'feeling comfortable as a woman' means. Can you explain?

When I am warm and not in pain and not hungry, I feel comfortable but in no different way to how my OH feels comfortable so not sure that it can be said that in those instance I feel comfortable as a woman and he feels comfortable as a man.

To take your analogy, when I write with my right-hand, I know I am right handed. I don't, however, feel like I am a right-handed woman in that instance. It's a better analogy with my description of a woman: I know I am a woman as I have a woman's body.

When people expect me to conform to female stereotypes that pisses me off. Does that mean I don't feel comfortable as a woman?

I knew I was a female before I knew the concept of genitals or had wide hips, or breasts, even longer before I had children. I was often misgendered as a child and knew I was a girl.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

but many trans women will refer to themselves as women, and across this thread, my "woman"hood was doubted, so the "c word" adds precision. It is positively weirder to say "were you born with a vagina".

Trans woman should call themselves trans woman and then we don't get the confusion. Your womanhood was doubted due to the confusion caused by men wanting to call themselves women. Cis confers an identity most women don't have - feel free to engage with that point.

I have that identity. I am a cis woman.

@VampireMoney

My best friend is a transwoman. You'd walk past her in the loos and never even know she's trans. You might even compliment her on her beautiful hair or her outfit or ask where she got her shoes. She might say she loves your lipstick shade. And you'd go on with your day not knowing you'd spoken to a transwoman.

Get. A. Grip.

See the pic above. You think that's ok?

yes yes, and if we have marriage equality, people will want to marry their toasters

hmm, you want me to give away my rights based on you redefining the meaning of the word 'woman', but being unable to give your new definition @CatherinaJTV

forgive me if I take absolutely nothing you say seriously

Which characteristics do you share with "natal" female criminals? That discussion is not going to get us anywhere.

Glad you brought this up. Well, in general, quite a few. We're all female. In the specifics, also quite a few, as my mother was a convicted criminal who had served a prison sentence. I am her biological daughter, and we share the same taste in literature for example.

It's why I keep asking people like yourself to consider the impact on incarcerated women of putting male transitioners in women's prisons instead of separate units.

[quote Zerogravity]@VampireMoney and your point is? Only pretty transwomen can use women's spaces? Which of these would you allow in?[/quote]
None of them

Gender is only a social construct. It is not a hard, biological fact.

yet, I keep getting misgendered for communicating like a man on a gender critical board.

[quote LabMix]@CatherinaJTV so you can’t answer the question of what a woman is yet you’re welcoming men into their spaces 🤡[/quote]
And welcoming them into incarcerated women's spaces.