‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

yes yes, and if we have marriage equality, people will want to marry their toasters
Oh jeeeeeeeez.
Sometimes, Catherina, rights are not like pie. My gay friends getting married did not deprive me of anything. In fact, it made me very happy that they were able to do so and make official relationships that had been going strong for decades.

Sometimes, though, rights ARE like pie. If any bloke can say he's a woman, bang go the safety and privacy of women in toilets and changing rooms and prisons. Bang go women's sports.

Can you honestly not see the difference? Or are you just eagerly looking for a way to try and make look like nasty people?

I knew I was a female before I knew the concept of genitals or had wide hips, or breasts, even longer before I had children. I was often misgendered as a child and knew I was a girl

So what? The adults calling you a girl knew you were a girl. It's much easier to confuse a boy and a girl as their bodies are not that differentiated. What do you think this shows? My point clearly was that I know I am a woman as I have a woman's body..there is not one single other reason. So a transwoman is not a woman and never can be.

I have that identity. I am a cis woman.
Again so what? Call yourself cis if you want to. No-one minds that. What we mind is you forcing that identity on others. You do understand that calling someone cis infers an identity most women don't have yes?

let's try this from a different angle @CatherinaJTV

do you understand why single sex spaces exist?

do you understand that people with male bodies (fuddy duddies like me call them 'men') commit 98% of sexual offenses?

do you understand that they are kept out of spaces where people with female bodies are vulnerable to keep those female people safe?

what is it about a person with a male body identifying as a woman that makes them less likely to commit sexual offences?

and no, saying 'most rapists are men' is not the same as saying 'most men are rapists' before you try to use that 'look! a squirrel!' distraction

Lots of chat here @CatherinaJTV so you might have missed the question but can you tell me what 'feeling comfortable as a woman' means?

@LittleWhingingWoman

Actually the game is up ladies. We've been caught in a massive gotcha.

I think it's best we start listing what we do in the toilets.

1. I stand admiring myself and other women at the mirrors and then I compliment womens fabulous dresses and ask them where they got them from. We then giggle a lot and swish our long hair.

1. I don't just ask about lipsticks - we all SHARE them! Whilst giggling!

1. "Where did you get those shoes?" This is the way that I find out how to buy shoes.

1. If children are in the loo I don't worry too much about being naked. Why am I naked in the loo you may ask! Don't look is my answer!

1. I turn the taps to the left and that lets me into the secret inner woman chamber. This is where myself and other women share tampons and towels. We whisper secrets. It's romantic and dizzying and exciting! We have a braiding salon in there. And pop tarts!

1. Some women - the grubby ones in trousers or the frumpy old Mumsnet mums go in there and have a pee. I don't think they should be allowed in there at all.

1. When I leave I spray the entire toilet with Angel perfume. Because I'm an angel.

What does everyone else do in there? It's best to be honest because we've been caught out!

Is this at claridge's hotel? Is there a specific day we do this? Cos I've been there many times, using claridge's cos it's at least as posh as the met.

Oooooooh its cos I've got short hair innit? That's why I dont get compliments or asked to pass the towels in the bogs.

I feel most comfortable as a woman, I guess that is the same with the two trans women you mentioned.

So that is why we ought to let males access female spaces? Because they feel most comfortable there? Please tell me there's more to your reasoning than that, Christina.

I can think of several other kinds of males who feel very comfortable in women's spaces and would like to spend time there. Is this how we decide which males are allowed to access female spaces? According to male desire?

Of course we have noticed. I have seen transgender males in the Ladies in various places, and in the bra fitting rooms in John Lewis. I (quite possibly wrongly) assumed at the time that these were homosexual, I still didn’t like them in my space, but I wasn’t worried about sexual assault.
Most people I talk to about this still assume we are talking about gay male people who have been castrated . It should be very clear to people now that this is very far from the case. Even if it was the case, women still want and need single sex spaces.

@EdithStourton

yes yes, and if we have marriage equality, people will want to marry their toasters Oh jeeeeeeeez. Sometimes, Catherina, rights are not like pie. My gay friends getting married did not deprive me of anything. In fact, it made me very happy that they were able to do so and make official relationships that had been going strong for decades.

Sometimes, though, rights ARE like pie. If any bloke can say he's a woman, bang go the safety and privacy of women in toilets and changing rooms and prisons. Bang go women's sports.

Can you honestly not see the difference? Or are you just eagerly looking for a way to try and make look like nasty people?

Wonderful that their marriage makes you happy. We have something in common. Nevertheless, in the run up to marriage equality in particular, all sort of horrendous stories about G/L perverts and pedophiles were spread, especially raising safety issues. My lesbian massage therapist did not dare to put up any indication she was not straight, because she had lost customers in her previous job, who did not want to be touched by a lesbian (or "didn't want them in their spaces"). I got asked whether I would let my kids spend a holiday with their G/L aunt or uncle. It is precisely because I see the similarity that I just cannot muster anti-trans panic.

@DomesticatedZombie

I can think of several other kinds of males who feel very comfortable in women's spaces and would like to spend time there. Is this how we decide which males are allowed to access female spaces? According to male desire?

you know that this is not what I meant.

And many posters here are lesbians, or bisexual women, Catherina. So the implication we are homophobic is bullshit. As you know.

@DomesticatedZombie

I feel most comfortable as a woman, I guess that is the same with the two trans women you mentioned.

So that is why we ought to let males access female spaces? Because they feel most comfortable there? Please tell me there's more to your reasoning than that, Christina.

the question was about who is a woman, not about spaces. My guess is (and I have heard that from several trans women) that they do NOT feel comfortable in the ladies' loo or changing rooms and would much prefer cubicles.

My lesbian massage therapist did not dare to put up any indication she was not straight, because she had lost customers in her previous job, who did not want to be touched by a lesbian

oh look! A squirrel!

now, about men committing 98% of sexual offences @CatherinaJTV ?

do you understand that's one of the main reasons for single sex spaces?

you know that this is not what I meant.

I am genuinely trying to understand your reasoning.

Then just keep doing it?
In that case, what's this new fuss about then?

@DomesticatedZombie

And many posters here are lesbians, or bisexual women, Catherina. So the implication we are homophobic is bullshit. As you know.

I did not imply that at all.

the question was about who is a woman, not about spaces. My guess is (and I have heard that from several trans women) that they do NOT feel comfortable in the ladies' loo or changing rooms and would much prefer cubicles.

Okay, great. But your reasoning is that anyone who 'feels most comfortable as a woman' is a woman? That is genuinely it?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

My lesbian massage therapist did not dare to put up any indication she was not straight, because she had lost customers in her previous job, who did not want to be touched by a lesbian

oh look! A squirrel!

now, about men committing 98% of sexual offences @CatherinaJTV ?

do you understand that's one of the main reasons for single sex spaces?

we are not talking about men or criminals. We are talking about women (trans and not trans).

The difference is, there is no basis for believing gay people may harm straight people. Or other gay people.

There IS basis for believing male people may harm female people.

@DomesticatedZombie

the question was about who is a woman, not about spaces. My guess is (and I have heard that from several trans women) that they do NOT feel comfortable in the ladies' loo or changing rooms and would much prefer cubicles.

Okay, great. But your reasoning is that anyone who 'feels most comfortable as a woman' is a woman? That is genuinely it?

For me, it is.

Being a woman is a feeling, and if a male has that feeling, that makes that male a woman?

we are not talking about men or criminals. We are talking about women (trans and not trans).

Oh! another squirrel!

do you understand why we have single sex spaces @CatherinaJTV ?

@aylis

The difference is, there is no basis for believing gay people may harm straight people. Or other gay people.

There IS basis for believing male people may harm female people.

yes, I understand that that's your reasoning, but I don't buy that, sorry.

Given self ID - imminent here in Scotland - here is no difference between a transwoman and a woman in law. Any male who has this 'feeling' (or says that they have this 'feeling') will be indistinguishable from females. You can see no problem with this at all? In any circumstance?

* I got asked whether I would let m kids spend a holiday with their G/L aunt or uncle. It is precisely because I see the similarity that I just cannot muster anti-trans panic.*

Big difference between that and for example, forcing female prisoners to share showers with male prisoners who identify as women. Complaining about male prisoners, some of whom are convicted of sex offences against women and children in female prisons is not " anti-trans" panic