‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

veronica ivy. man who identifies as a woman. not a criminal

why are me and veronica both women? what characteristics do we share that make us both women?

I think this is the crucial question, and I've never yet seen it answered. Would be good to hear your view, Catherina.

Paedophiles have been raping babies for far longer than women have even had public toilets available to them.
That doesn't make it right & is not a good argument for allowing them to continue or want the law to be changed to make it a crime to object.
They even identify themselves as part of the TQ+ gang.

Slavery has been around for a long time too.
Just because some people traded in humans for a long time already, should it be regarded as their human right & the slavers given their own special days due to the fact they got away with it for so long?

Should sex traffickers get their own flag & a place in a parade so they can be proud of what they do?
After all, it's not a new thing either.

Just because something wrong has been done in the past, or even still continues to be done to this day, does not mean that it should be allowed to continue.

That's disgusting and I am sorry.
says @CatherinaJTV in response to @DomesticatedZombie having the experience of transwoman wanking into the sink.

And that's one of the risks women are exposed to, if we let any bloke who fancies it say he's a laydee and use our loos (which we don't have enough of anyway).

It's well and good being sorry, but how about not letting it happen in the first fucking place?

I was indeed. See, this is where "cis" would come in helpful for precision of discussion, but here we are.

No, this is where women and transwoman would come in helpful here. We had precision of discussion but TRA are trying to obliterate that. The solution is not to misgender most women with offensive 'cis' language.

The solution is to call women women and to call the subset of men who identify as women 'transwomen'. No need to misgender with this language as 'women' is not a reference to identity but 'transwoman' is whilst still recognising them as biologically male.

Yes, what makes a man a woman?

Apologies my post should read males and females should only be able to use the factilities that they match the sex at birth.

I re-read my post and realised I had not made my view clear.

I feel most comfortable as a woman, I guess that is the same with the two trans women you mentioned.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I was indeed. See, this is where "cis" would come in helpful for precision of discussion, but here we are.

No, this is where women and transwoman would come in helpful here. We had precision of discussion but TRA are trying to obliterate that. The solution is not to misgender most women with offensive 'cis' language.

The solution is to call women women and to call the subset of men who identify as women 'transwomen'. No need to misgender with this language as 'women' is not a reference to identity but 'transwoman' is whilst still recognising them as biologically male.

but many trans women will refer to themselves as women, and across this thread, my "woman"hood was doubted, so the "c word" adds precision. It is positively weirder to say "were you born with a vagina".

Think I must be living in a bubble!! How often are you all encountering men claiming to be trans to enter in women’s spaces? I mean - in your real every day life - in the Costa loos, your leisure centre changing rooms? Is this something that’s happening to you all every day, or more like weekly / monthly? Trying to get a sense of the scale as I live in a really diverse liberal city and I’ve never seen this first hand myself.

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Yes, I wonder now if that was done as intentional propaganda.

It was. Press for Change were heavily involved.

Ah, thank you. I had a quick look and found this. herriotts.wordpress.com/2020/06/11/the-usual-suspects-hayley-cropper/

@CatherinaJTV

I feel most comfortable as a woman, I guess that is the same with the two trans women you mentioned.

no no

define woman without using the word 'woman'

like 'chair' = a separate seat for one person, typically with a back and four legs

I'm going to say it again

you want me to give up my rights for this

you need a bloody good explanation. i'd love to hear it

@CatherinaJTV

I have no idea who all these people are you are mentioning. I will not discuss their rights in relation to some criminals.

I find it absolutely astounding that you are determined to concede all women's rights to single sex spaces when you have done no due diligence whatsoever.

or is a chair something that feels most comfortable as a chair?

As I said earlier in the thread I know a transwoman, we share a hobby (obviously it would be far too outing for me to say what it is so I will let you all assume it's cycling). From one of the 'girlie chats' they have instigated with me I know that they use the ladies loos. I'm really not comfortable with this but neither am I comfortable with with telling them I don't want them in female spaces. I suspect I would be branded a bigot and give the cold shoulder by many of the people I share this activity with so I put up and shut up and cross my fingers that I don't encounter them in the ladies or use a portaloo even if I would usually seek out 'proper' toilet. So they probably assume I'm OK with them in the ladies - I'm not, I just don't want to be a target for abuse because I the one that calls them out. If I was asked if I was OK I'd say no but raising it out of the blue it too big a step for me.

Ah, and this (re Press for Change and Coronation Street trans character being part of their strategy)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4248152-A-message-from-a-trans-friend-International-Day-Against-Homophobia-Transphobia-and-Biphobia?msgid=107530473

we're in the count down to the 'you're all big meanies and I can't talk to you' flounce

but I find it strangely satisfying every time. it's probably some sort of personality flaw

""Which characteristics do you share with "natal" female criminals? That discussion is not going to get us anywhere.""

Oh come on.

Women come in all shapes, sizes, builds, sexual orientations, colours, religions ad nauseum.
Lesbian women? Still women.
Disabled women? Still women.
Tall butch women? Still women.
Criminal women? Still women.

Man with a dick who "feeelz" like a woman? Not a fucking woman.

SEX MATTERS.
THAT'S what we share with other women that we can never share with biological men.

WHAT is a woman? If it encompasses being a man, what is a woman? I don't think you have answered this apart from trying to say that argument won't go anywhere.
Isn't that because you know that question cannot be answered in any way that includes men?

Still waiting @CatherinaJTV for your answer to @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg 's question.

@Shesellseashells82

Think I must be living in a bubble!! How often are you all encountering men claiming to be trans to enter in women’s spaces? I mean - in your real every day life - in the Costa loos, your leisure centre changing rooms? Is this something that’s happening to you all every day, or more like weekly / monthly? Trying to get a sense of the scale as I live in a really diverse liberal city and I’ve never seen this first hand myself.

I've not ever knowingly encountered (someone who reads as) a trans woman in the loo. I've had one sat next to me in the tube (and yes, I struck a conversation), at an independence demo, in cafes, or at work events, or at my friends with trans kids.

@Enough4me

Still waiting *@CatherinaJTV for your answer to @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg* 's question.

I've given it above

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

we're in the count down to the 'you're all big meanies and I can't talk to you' flounce

but I find it strangely satisfying every time. it's probably some sort of personality flaw

I also have this personality flaw. Also really enjoy watching them get tangled up in their nonsensical arguments and then finishing with either a flounce or a block (usually preceded by calling me a terf cunt)

define woman without using the word 'woman'

sorry what?

You absolutely haven’t answered @BernardBlackMissesLangCleg’s question, @CatherinaJTV

Catherina - it's quite simple.
What is a woman?

@CatherinaJTV

I feel most comfortable as a woman, I guess that is the same with the two trans women you mentioned.

this is your definition of a woman?

'a woman is someone who feels most comfortable as a woman' ?

you know that total bollocks don't you? of course you do

a dog is an animal that feels most comfortable as a dog

a doctor is a person who feels most comfortable as a doctor

yeah. doesn't work with those either

please do try again. you're trying to make me give up my rights. i'm waiting for you to convince me